The Battle for Online Childhood | Keith Waggoner

[00:00:00] I'm delighted to welcome everybody back to The Social World Podcast. It's always a very great privilege to have you listening. And as always, too, I've tried to get you the best of guests. And this week is just no difference.

[00:00:15] Keith Waggoner, who is the founder of ZeroWake. He's a builder and operator driven by real world impact and experience in technology and gaming and security and defense contracting, but developing systems that address modern threats. And I know that one of these threats is very big for him, which is stopping child exploitation before it happens. Keith, welcome to the program.

[00:00:44] Yeah, it's an honor to be here. Thank you so much. And yeah, the description kind of paints a broad picture, right? Connecting the dots between video games and something as serious as trafficking or exploitation, right? Well, absolutely. That's what I want to actually start off with. Your current baby, if you like, your project that you're absolutely full on into at the moment, to do with video games, to do with protecting children in video.

[00:01:13] You know, when using video games. And I'm sure that some things are under wraps, but can you tell us much about it? Yeah. You know, just in general, the company named ZeroWake is really focused on stopping child exploitation before it happens, right? Specifically in online areas and gaming environments, really specifically.

[00:01:41] And by doing, you know, preventative measures more than reactive measures, which is what a lot of people do. So that includes building new tools, trainings for law enforcement, as well as the public, intelligence systems, and just helping law enforcement developers and publishers in the gaming industry.

[00:02:04] And really everyday people that kind of can learn how to spot these early warning systems and, you know, do something about it, like I said, preventatively instead of as a reactive measure. Oh, I do love it when I get good guests. I mean, you know, it's really interesting that you've had such experiences.

[00:02:27] Because, I mean, Larry Cameron, who we had previously on the program, you know, I know is a great friend of yours and also partner in this enterprise. I mean, between you, my goodness, you must have racked up goodness knows how much experience in actually combating child exploitation. You know, I think admirable.

[00:02:50] I mean, and lots of people have come across, there are a growing number, thankfully, but still too few people of enough experience to really be able to create stuff to deal with this. I suspect you would agree? Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:03:07] And, you know, it's even more unfortunate and I can't fault anybody because of the modern day and age, but, you know, using it almost as a gimmick or a tactic online for clickbait and monetization and things like that. And just kind of going about it in a sloppy way as well, whether, you know, whether they're just naive or just unaware.

[00:03:33] But, yeah, it's kind of unfortunate the dwindling number of passionate people about things like this. Do you think it's the kind of syndrome that's affected people in other walks of life, whether it's war or whether it's kind of like major threat of some kind or disasters? Yeah.

[00:04:14] Yeah. Yeah. I couldn't agree more.

[00:04:46] Yeah.

[00:05:15] All of it. It's glaze over. It's almost, yeah. Yeah. It's almost like talking to a wall at that point. But it's unfortunate. I get your picture. I do understand that. I really do. Yeah. And looking to follow that up, what I want to ask you really is about, you listed at the beginning quite reasonably, and I know there was war on the list if you had been less modest, that effectively, you know, things that you'd been involved with.

[00:05:44] But where did it begin? You know, well, video games as a whole have always been a part of my life. I mean, since I was a child, I've been involved in playing games and it's just, it's been a really impactful and incorporated part of my life.

[00:06:10] So video games have always been there, even to the point where I wanted to be, you know, part of the system, like an artist coming out of high school. But I realized there's not much of a career there or there wasn't at least back then. So I went into the military and that's where I started my military career. And, you know, I've always had a soft spot for people that just can't help themselves. Right. And children specifically fall into that category.

[00:06:40] And I've definitely been a part of, you know, certain search and rescue and operations that have dealt with that in the last 10 years or so of my contracting career.

[00:06:53] But more recently, within the last five years or so, getting married, kind of setting up the white picket life and having children of my own has really just sort of skyrocketed that motivation to help others that, you know, are less fortunate or can't really help themselves. And it gives me a certain level of empathy now that I can relate with.

[00:07:17] So that really is what, you know, spearheaded or skyrocketed this to sort of be a public facing entity now and to meet up with previous friends like Larry or any of the people I work with because, you know, it was something that we could actually be actionable on. We could do something about it. So if we're not going to, who else is? So it's while you were in the army that the ideas got sparked. In the Navy, yeah. In the Navy, sorry. Okay.

[00:07:45] In the U.S. Navy. And then, you know, like I said, contracting for several years after that as well. No, I mean, you're obviously somebody that can handle things up to a point, you know, because nobody's absolutely, you know, immune. But, you know, I did lots of stuff with Interpol in the past and on sex tourism in on the Pacific Rim and so on.

[00:08:12] And I got quite shocked, you know, along the way. But, you know, I came back home. I didn't have to live it or I didn't have to continually investigate it, you know, that kind of thing. I could talk about it a lot, which I hope I did. But, you know, but the point being really is that, you know, you've got to take care of yourself sometimes.

[00:08:39] And I think that's a message to anybody that we might like to recruit, if you like, to do things that we've been involved with ourselves. You know, that sort of thing. Yeah. Awareness is huge. It will always, you know, legitimate awareness will always be one of the most powerful things. Right. And having people know we exist. The whole company philosophy of zero wake, you know, is kind of like a Navy or a boating term. Right. Where you don't make any ripples.

[00:09:09] You don't make any waves. So we've been doing the work already just behind the scenes and without a lot of attention. And we've realized that we can make a greater impact if we actually come forward to the public and get that awareness and get that support. And, yeah, recruit people. And even the monetary support. Right. It goes to the tools we build and the systems that we have to upkeep and put together.

[00:09:37] So all of it helps, honestly. And I hate to be a cliche, but every drop in the bucket fills it. Right. Of course it does. Listen, I mean, you know, very few people started with a nice fat thing from their father, except maybe your president, I suppose. But whatever, you know, effectively, I want to just talk a little bit more about what you were talking about on the education side, if that's OK.

[00:10:03] Because obviously, and it makes total sense, you know, you talk about educating parents, platforms and communities. What tools do you use for that? Or is it mainly just human contact, speeches, etc.? Yeah. So primarily right now, anyways, it is. It's workshops and trainings and like live sessions that we do.

[00:10:29] And, you know, I personally, being in the gaming industry, have a certain level of tech expertise, but nowhere near cybersecurity or intelligence experts. And that's why we had to work with somebody like Larry, because he is that link to the puzzle where I just cannot. Right. I can't even voice or use the nomenclature very well. So, hey, listen, listen, look, look to your if you look to your left and far down the hill, that's where I am.

[00:10:58] Yeah. Yeah. It's it's funny. And you know what? I have to take it with a grain of salt, too, because I always am part of that group where I think everybody thinks on the same level. Right. And you have to understand some people don't have the awareness. And so, yeah, it definitely helps to go to schools or anywhere we can.

[00:11:19] And like I said, working with law enforcement now, even to help bring them up to date, because, you know, you say something like gaming and maybe now people are understanding. But usually people kind of look at it like, well, what do you mean? Like video games? Like where what are you doing with, you know, predators or exploitation in gaming? It just doesn't make sense. But they're starting to get aware. No, I mean, I just thinking that have you ever considered that I'm not advocating it, but I mean, you know,

[00:11:49] leading with sort of some really heavy duty stuff in terms of kind of promoting up promotion, but, you know, persuading people what you see as important. Yeah, I am probably one of the biggest advocates specifically for, you know, gaming in these online areas, because, again, I was tired of doing it in the shadows and I had to come out forward.

[00:12:14] I mean, I put on events and I've worked with the government in the gaming industry anyways, as far as, you know, infrastructure and building things. But right now, gaming is probably the largest social platform, especially for kids on the entire planet. And they're living there. And, you know, these predators and these people know that.

[00:12:36] So we're trying to build some public facing tools that parents, law enforcement, kids, anybody can have access to for free that they can just, you know, check themselves and check who it is that they're talking to. And we can build these systems. And yeah, that's one thing I would promote is that's what we're going to be having on the website. Like that's what the website is. Tell me this then, Keith, because there's a bit of a flaw in there, too, because if you're doing it for free, which is wonderful, who's paying for it?

[00:13:06] And are you having to raise the money? Currently, yeah, we do raise the money. And if you go to zero wake.org, you will see our GoFundMe and our different ways that you can donate to help support us. We are going after certain grants and we do make money in like our trainings and things that we do extracurricular, like with the public.

[00:13:27] So we are trying to stay afloat. But this is kind of that initial push for telling everybody we exist so that we can do more substantial work. Well, obviously, I'm sitting in the UK and you're sitting there in Las Vegas. But effectively, do you do much international work?

[00:13:48] Yeah, we do a lot of international work online because a lot of these game publishers are, you know, across the world, whether they're in the UK or Canada or here in the States. So we are trying to gain that global foothold for, like I said, our public facing system on the back end.

[00:14:08] We go across borders all day long and try to put together profiles or these entity lists and things so that we can connect a lot of the dots. Because what's happening is these game publishers and producers and developers are kind of siloed. Even if they wanted to help, you know, they can only help really within their niche.

[00:14:33] They can't go out into Discord or Snapchat or across the boundaries that they have. So they're very limited then. Yeah, so it's up to somebody like us to connect all those dots because that's how these predators work. And even in the United States, there's legislature being pushed right now, the Safer Gaming Act and stuff that's going to be forcing these publishers and developers to sort of take certain countermeasures, you know, outside of profanity.

[00:15:02] Because right now that's kind of all they're monitoring for. So, yeah, it's a good time to finally get some awareness and some push on it. And we're going to be at the forefront of it. Well, obviously, we're going to keep in touch. I'd like to sort of just push on a little bit. Have you got, you know, I think we've got a bit of time still, if that's all right. Oh, plenty. Okay. Training programs that you offer are presumably Zero Wake offers, yeah? Yeah? Yeah, yeah.

[00:15:32] So, I mean, apart from what I'll tell people, because you're going to see it as well, your website and et cetera, et cetera. Where else would you be likely to come across it? Do you do much promotion on social media? Well, we just created all the social accounts before our conversation here. So, yeah, we will be pushing pretty hard across social media, in our discords, across, you know, just anywhere online that we possibly can. And hopefully some of our partners.

[00:16:01] We work with a lot of eSports organizations, veteran communities. And these people have massive reach already. And they're very like-minded individuals that are already in this industry. So, that's where you're going to be finding us is probably promotions in a lot of the games you're already playing or the, you know, communities you're already in.

[00:16:19] And speaking directly to my gaming family out there, but we are starting to embed and we're piloting systems here in Las Vegas with local government and law enforcement that are going to be adopting our systems and our training specifically for their certifications, for their, whether it's beat cops or vice or anybody that's involved on the law enforcement side. So, we are going to be reaching out to them directly.

[00:16:48] But, again, we have intake forms on the website. So, if anybody out there hears this and is kind of curious, we are tailoring our systems because we have such a broad scope of what we can do. So, it's kind of impossible to say, here's a big blanket of everything we can do. What we're doing is we're going to, like, specific law enforcement and saying, what are you missing? Where are your gaps? And if you don't know where your gaps are, we will find them.

[00:17:18] And we're going to tailor these trainings and these systems to you and give you access to our platforms that we're currently building and so on and so forth, right? So, we're being very collaborative in our measures to make sure we're getting the most bang for our buck. Is that mainly in the U.S.? I know you're doing consultancy abroad, but in terms of the training, for example? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:17:45] Primarily in the U.S. with local groups and organizations, schools, like I said, family organizations. But, yeah, mainly because, like I said, we're piloting these systems, these public trainings. So, a lot of it's going to be here on the West Coast in the United States because that's where we're located. So, it's a lot easier to obviously get out and do things on a lower budget right now. I appreciate it. I think what you do is fantastic.

[00:18:13] You know, I'm just trying to work out what do you do in the afternoons? I try to spend time with my kids, God willing. But aside from that, you know, I do have day jobs and I own and run a couple other companies. So, it's a lot. My bandwidth is very limited, but I try to be as proactive as I can with it.

[00:18:40] So, ZeroWake as a whole is kind of tiered, right? So, we're building out these public infrastructures, which will have chatbots, safe, third-party, non-manipulative chatbots that will support parents and just general public that want to come and visit. We will have resources like, you know, contacts, tip lines.

[00:19:04] We'll have a portal that Larry is building out with obviously the open source intelligence tools in there. And all of that's going to be on the public-facing side. And then the second tier is the back end of our system, which is actually putting together all of these profiles.

[00:19:23] And without saying too much of the secret spices, right, is that it's actively listening and recovering signals, let's say, that people are putting out. So, everybody knows as an example that sting operations or luring operations from law enforcement are already happening.

[00:19:45] They're catching these predators, just like on the TV show that I'm sure everybody's seen, by, you know, posing as, you know, minors and underage individuals and luring and capturing these, you know, disgusting people. But that's on a case-by-case basis and it's done by real people. What we're doing is we're going to be able to do that in mass.

[00:20:10] We're going to be able to collect that data as long as it's on the open source area and go in and understand those signals before, again, any sort of predatory actions even happen, right? And so we're going to be able to collect that and use that intel on the back end to build subpoenas, build cases, build algorithms that are going to track, like I said, these entities across, whether it's discourse, Snapchat, social media, game lobbies.

[00:20:39] Roblox is a big one, obviously. Everybody knows that. Fortnite, like anywhere and everywhere in the gaming and online ecosystem, it's going to be in mass. And that's huge. So, you really basically, correct me if I'm wrong, but you're talking about perhaps assembling a forensic library. Exactly. Exactly. It's profile building.

[00:21:00] Yeah, it's taking these signals, let's call them again, right, without giving too much away of, you know, let me just be very naive about it or fifth grade level, which is basically that this doesn't happen overnight.

[00:21:17] Somebody doesn't just jump into your messages on Fortnite or Call of Duty or something and say, hey, I'm an older guy and I'm trying to, you know, lure you and do bad things, right? It doesn't happen like that. It happens over months, if not longer, and they build trust, they build friendships, they build relationships, and they bring those children and those underage people across platforms with them.

[00:21:46] They might find them in a game lobby, and then they pull them to Snapchat, and then they pull them to Discord, or they start sending, you know, media to each other. So, it's a long process, and there's plenty of time. There's plenty of room to catch those signals much sooner than anybody is, and that's where we're trying to focus. So, what's preventing it? People? It's an understanding, a lack of understanding, I should say, right?

[00:22:15] It happens so quickly, and these people, these bad actors, adapt so quickly. And it's up to people like us that understand the industry with my gaming background specifically on where to find this, where to get it upstream. Yeah, you've got any figures, have you, Keith?

[00:22:35] Any kind of context, either of an area particular or general idea of kind of the cases, the number of cases we're talking about, the number of, you know, within the gaming family, if you like, in a year? Yeah, I want to say, give me one sec, let me get my data in front of me. Isn't that good? A guest that has data, that's terrific. Sorry.

[00:23:05] Okay. Oh, yeah. I've got everything. Because, as I said, we are currently building out quite a bit of information and data pools for different organizations, especially here in the United States. So, here we go. Yeah. I mean, it's incredible.

[00:23:23] So, currently, there's literally about 36 million reports of these suspected, you know, child sexual exploitation and things like that. Did you say 36? 36 million every year since, you know, our reports pick up from 2023 up until currently. So, it's not incidents necessarily of things that have actually happened. These are just the reports.

[00:23:50] And that goes to say that how many reports are not reported, right, or how many incidents are not reported. So, it's ridiculous. And year over year, it's only increasing, I think, three to 400 percent because, like I said, they're adapting so quickly.

[00:24:08] And I think, if I remember correctly, I don't have in front of me, roughly, like, I think one in five kids are experiencing some type of solicitation online in the gaming industry alone. One in five. That means somebody you know probably has a kid or something that has been solicited, whether they know it or not. And, you know, it's like I said, it's rampant at this point.

[00:24:36] And, you know, like I said, even in the FBI and the three-letter industries here or organizations here in the United States, they're starting to understand. And they're starting to cooperate and collaborate a lot better with teams like, you know, Thorne or any of the people that are a little more well-known right now.

[00:24:54] So, remember, Keith, if there was any contacts you wanted to recommend as well as Zero Wake, you know, we'll put them on the front page if they're people that you think would complement people's understanding of things. Yeah, I think we're sort of first. We are pretty much at the forefront or the front line of this industry specifically.

[00:25:22] You know, a lot of people glaze over it, like I said. So, when it comes to gaming, Zero Wake is going to be at the beginning of it. So, any and all support through Zero Wake is really going to drive us to the front of, like I said, the line. Okay. Anything like Paradigm, right, and Qantas with Larry is going to be super helpful as well.

[00:25:45] And, you know, I have been very impressed with several of my previous guests on the program as well. I mean, in terms of trafficking, in terms of survivors and law enforcement, it's just a perfect example. And you now adding this kind of shocking numbers about gaming industry, you know, with all the other issues to do with slavery, trafficking, hunker-dunker.

[00:26:14] I mean, I'd like you to listen to a little story, all right, and give me an opinion. Is that okay? Okay. I did, as part of a previous group of podcasts to do with human trafficking in the Caribbean, I interviewed someone who was working for the UN Task Force on Trafficking in that region. And her partner.

[00:26:39] A day before I was due to put the podcast out, I got a frantic phone call, a frantic email from their boss pleading with me not to put it out. Because, in their words, Donald Trump had just removed all their funding and 11 point something million, you know, for that team working in the Caribbean.

[00:27:07] And they didn't know what to do, but they were under a penalty if they discussed it externally or something, you know, blah, blah, blah. And I thought, well, I could have put it out. I didn't in the end because, funnily enough, a few months later, the woman had left because obviously she didn't have a job anymore, but set up her own company, has got a really good CV and a perfect amount of experience. And she offered to do the podcast as an individual and it was great value.

[00:27:36] And she was the first in the series of four. Anyway, all I'm really saying, you know, is that there's a lot of good people out there. It's worthwhile we can. And I want our guests, and I'm obviously talking with yourself, to be, you know, as open as possible because at the moment they're all free, you know, to interact with, to use as a network. Yeah. There you are. I've told everybody this, so it's not, you know, it's not, people could be coming after you.

[00:28:06] Yeah, who knows, right? And there's always a risk, but, you know, I think the reward is, is the bigger upside and having a bigger network of people and individuals, right, is more important because, yeah, who knows, right? If it's internal, if it's our own government or if it's external, you always have to, you always have to be aware and, and just hope for the best because even us, we don't get a whole lot of support.

[00:28:32] We have to beg and plead or kick down doors just to get attention. And so that's why we just do it on our own regardless, like no matter what, we're going to do it. Subjects a lot of people shy away from. They just can't handle it. I understand. I mean, being there, you know, got a T-shirt. I'm dealing with that in my own community right now, right? I usually, I'm very lighthearted and fun and in my LinkedIn or my social life and, and all of a sudden kind of doing a public switch to like, here's what I'm trying to build. It's something that's really important.

[00:29:02] Can you help support? It's, it's crickets. All right. I've got a last, I've got a last question I've got to put to you. Is that all right? I mean, you can have two parts in it. Firstly, I want to know where they can get, if the website's the only place, fine.

[00:29:22] If not, how they can get a hold of information about, you know, Zero Wake and your work and about events coming up and so on.

[00:29:33] And then a quick minute just on advice to people who could well be on the brink 50-50 in terms of not quite knowing what to do about friend, neighbor, relative, workmate in terms of actual kind of behavioral stuff and changes. You know, it's, it's not the easiest thing to, to sort of, you know, what might happen if you're wrong, you know? Yeah, I, I agree.

[00:30:03] And the biggest push we're going to do is at zerowake.org. And we are going to be having our calendars on there. Like I said, we are brand spanking new on the public facing side. So all of this is being built out. You'll see our cross, all of our socials. It will be at zerowake.org. And the website, again, will have most of our details, our links, our support systems.

[00:30:33] And you can contact me or any of the team directly on there. We are an open door. We're always looking for any type of support that we can get. So definitely go through those channels to find us. And I think I have kind of like three points I can, I can end as far as advice or, or just call outs or anything like that.

[00:30:54] And mainly is if you're a parent or just anybody in general, that is kind of relevant, you know, start paying attention to who your kids are talking to or interacting with online. Not just what they're playing and the content that they're playing. That doesn't matter because they're going to be going specifically in any space that your kids are in.

[00:31:22] So it's more about paying attention to the conversations that they're having and not necessarily prying into their lives, but just being more educational with them, right? Getting your kids to understand the signs so that they don't fall victim to any of these kind of things. That's, that's the biggest one I can shout out is the parents.

[00:31:43] If you're in the gaming industry or in any of these online industries at all, I think we together need to build safer systems, you know, without, without killing the gaming industry or what makes it great. It's a fun space. It's supposed to be a escape or a space for your children. But we need to organize together and not be so combative.

[00:32:13] And we need to work together because that's really what it's going to be is opening up systems with each other. And I think on the third part is, again, if you want to support whether you're a public group, parent individually, law enforcement or anybody listening that understands the importance of what we're doing. Just reach out zero wake.org or info at zero wake.org. You can email directly.

[00:32:43] Let's work together. Let's figure out what we can do together. We are an extremely supportive group and we're happy to help. So those are the main points. There we are. I think you got, no, you got it out clearly and that's quite important. Okay. Look, Keith, thanks ever so much for talking with us. I've got a feeling we'll do it again. Yeah, looking forward. You know, we'll do an audit on you, a check. All right. How are you getting on?

[00:33:13] Yeah. Hopefully we'll have really great news. You'll be sitting there in your sunbed with a martini in your hand or something like that. Yeah. Yeah. Maybe, maybe before I wake up or maybe in VR, right? I'll have the VR classes done. Yeah. Right now, currently, just so everybody knows, you know, every penny pretty much that you guys donate or help support us is going straight to the mission. This is completely extracurricular for us. So we really appreciate it.

[00:33:42] Well, I think it's good that you made that point and a good point to finish on. So, Luke, Keith Wagoner, thank you very, very much. You know, the very best of luck with Zero Wake and everything else. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, it was a pleasure and honor. Thank you so much.