Larry Cameron. Human Trafficking expert and CEO Paradigm Intelligence Ltd.

[00:00:00] Well, welcome back to The Social World Podcast. I'm Dave Niven and as always it's a pleasure to have your company. I've got an old friend of the podcast back today who's made some fantastic new developments. Larry Cameron, who is the Chief Executive, President and Founder of Paradigm Intelligence, but that's just today. He's been involved with so many things in the past to do with protecting the world we live in and vulnerable people. Welcome back to the podcast, Larry.

[00:00:30] Thanks for having me, David. Pleasure to be back. Right. No, look, you've developed these new platforms and this analysis, if you like, of the vulnerabilities of all the countries, about 193 countries, and you've developed all the risk levels, you've done analysis, you've got data. It's so excellent and so needed.

[00:00:54] And you actually make it now available for law enforcement, for open source intelligence, force protection, public safety, the whole thing, forensic. It's such a good development. But I want you to tell me and the audience a bit about how you came about it and why you do it and what you think its benefit will be. Could you give us a start on that?

[00:01:21] Yeah. So during my work with other NGOs, I've worked with, you know, well over a dozen, but we've always had that one same problem and that's with funding. And if you don't have funding, sometimes you aren't able to build these sort of platforms. So what I devised is certain ways that I can deploy these platforms at low cost and in, you know, pretty quickly. So it's a lot more efficient.

[00:01:51] It's a lot better. I can focus on any particular problem that I want. One could be human trafficking. Another one could be terrorism. Another one could be war crimes. Another one could be homelessness. Because a lot of the time these sort of issues overlap, you know, homelessness can lead to terrorism or theft or other crimes or trafficking. You've actually got, each one is really you're developing an intelligence dashboard for, haven't you?

[00:02:20] Yeah. So there's different issues I'm developing dashboards for, you know, again, like the terrorism or child abuse or, you know, problems with veterans right now, war crimes. So I actually developed a war crime one that's global based on a client that wanted me to look into the Sarajevo Safari.

[00:02:43] That's where there was an actual war and they were bringing people in to shoot civilians or yeah, it's well, essentially war crime. So that's when I started to expand. I don't like to play favorites. So I started focusing on all war crimes. Okay. Okay.

[00:03:02] I've seen several of the ones that you've developed with different countries, but there's so many different areas of kind of need and vulnerability and concern. I mean, did it take you such a long, it looks to me as if it took you forever to actually develop this, but you've put technology to a great use of the forensic side of it, haven't you? Yeah.

[00:03:28] So I've been training law enforcement for about five years, trained over 7,000 agencies, probably around 7,200. Now 5,400 of those were the internet crimes against children task forces. Um, they make up well, 5,400 agencies and 61 individual task forces. So that, that was actually one of my favorite training things.

[00:03:52] I developed three courses through an OJJDP grant and all the new and existing ICAC were required to take them over the two years of that grant. So they're, they're kind of my heroes. So I was really excited to do that, even if it was very, very low pay. Well, yeah. Yeah. It's not the highest paid work, is it? I think it averaged about $18 per agency, which was split up multiple people. Okay.

[00:04:21] I first came across you when you were working for anti-trafficking intelligence initiative. Um, you know, the, the, um, that, that, that, that was one organization that you are still involved with, isn't it? I'm not still involved with them. Um, working more with the, the anti-trafficking bureau and other NGOs, uh, We Fight Monsters. They're an amazing NGO out of Memphis. Do you want to start focusing?

[00:04:46] Can we just, to give people an example, maybe, and talk about one country of the 190 odd that you've actually developed forensic, um, intelligence on. And I'm just going to give people an idea of the depth that you've managed to dig into. Um, would you like to talk about, about Haiti or Venezuela? Haiti? Uh, yeah, Haiti. So each platform, what I've done is I created a master template.

[00:05:14] So I want to actually grab all the data in the same categories for every single country. It could be either human trafficking. Yeah. So Haiti right now is on a tier two watch list. It breaks it down with a child domestic servitude, sex trafficking, forced labor, cross border trafficking, or smuggling, uh, gang controlled trafficking, IDP camp exploitation. So right now there's about 300,000 children.

[00:05:42] Now, if we switch to the child protection right now, there's over 5 million children at risk in Haiti. And that's labeled as a humanitarian catastrophe. We go down to the crime data and you see 40.9 per 100,000 people. This is, you know, uh, homicide. Yeah. That is really high. Usually you see it down near three, but this is like over 10 times increase. So the major humanitarian crisis.

[00:06:11] I've seen your figures, I've seen your figures too. I mean, there's only 11, 11 and a half, 11.7 million of a population in Haiti. Yeah, exactly. So there's no government, no active government right now from what I'm seeing here. Uh, it's a failed state. Yeah. So, I mean, you need to get government in there. You need to get law enforcement. You need to get military. You need to get more humanitarian aid there. You need to actually rescue Haiti right now.

[00:06:39] Uh, the food insecurity. Who's trying to do this? Do you know any of who? Who are trying to do it? The United Nations, is it? Or is it individual countries are trying to help or some of the superpowers? I mean, what's your take on it? A lot of countries are trying to help, but there's some that take advantage of this situation. Uh, you know, if there's a lawless country, then, oh, you can get weapons through there. You can get drugs through there. You can get people through there. You can exploit them.

[00:07:09] You can steal all their minerals. It's a very, very broad topic. I mean, you can evade sanctions. There's nothing you can't do in a country like this because there's no law. Okay. But over half a million people, according to your own figures, are actually been displaced within Haiti itself. Yeah. Five million food insecurity. Right.

[00:07:35] And it's because it's not just, um, the kind of people literally taking advantage. It's the net result of it, such as malnutrition, humanitarian need, and as you said, food insecurities as well. It's like a total, um, perfect storm of, um, vulnerability. Yeah. And if you look at even the tourist safety, I mean, kidnapping almost 2,500 in 2023, daily

[00:08:02] gun battles, gain rape as a weapon of terror, armed carjacking daily. Hospitals are non-functional in many areas. So there's no trauma care, earthquakes, hurricanes, flooding, zero resilience capacity. I mean, it's, it's just why live there. Uh, there, there's no reason to live in Haiti. You just want to get out of there and migrate to another company, but our country, but you don't have food, you don't have work, you don't have money. You don't have anything. There's absolutely no possibility.

[00:08:31] Do you see any lights at the end of the tunnel? At the end of the tunnel? There's, uh, I'm not even sure. I'm just seeing the stats here today on Haiti. I just generated it earlier today and I'm, I'm shocked. Yeah. So what I want to do out of all the country is I want to see, well, let's rate these from worst to best. Yeah. Okay. And then you can, you know, do you pick your battles?

[00:08:58] I mean, Myanmar, for instance, Myanmar is, you know, there was 120,000 people trafficked through the KK Park pig butchering schemes. So I've been presenting on that for about five years. Could you explain people, Larry, could you explain a little bit about what pig butchering is to people? Yeah, for sure. It's, uh, it's the old investment scams, romance scams, uh, cryptocurrency and investment scam, stuff like that.

[00:09:26] Uh, but the people that are doing the scamming are being trafficked. So this started around the beginning of COVID where they started recruiting these people from all the surrounding countries in Southeast Asia, like Malaysia, Thailand, Cambodia. It started in Cambodia. There was about a hundred thousand traffic there, but then, you know, there's some pressure from the United Nations and other countries on them nation.

[00:09:51] And so they did about 10,000 raids and they dispersed all across Southeast Asia and KK Park. It's probably around 15 to $18 billion compound. And again, I've been working on this for five years, never got paid a cent. They just had a $15 billion seizure. I've had workshops on this training law enforcement, training compliance from, uh, financial institutions and banks. Yeah.

[00:10:19] And, uh, it's just insane. The amount of human rights violations. So they're labor trafficking. So they're making them scam the people globally, which billions and billions are being lost to these scams. People are committing suicide because they lost their life savings. They remortgaged their house. Uh, and even with the $15 billion seize, uh, I continued to work on it and I notified Starlink

[00:10:48] and all that, and they shut down 2,500 dishes. And one of the problems we were having was the internet was being brought over from Thailand into Myanmar on the border. Yeah. KK Park compound. So they could freely cross the border, but they're bringing the internet. They did it in Laos and Cambodia as well. And the one in Cambodia was actually state owned by Thailand.

[00:11:14] So the Thailand government were somehow allowing these cables to be brought over into Cambodia to support these scam compounds. 10,000 lines were cut. It's not just, um, yeah, I'm aware in Myanmar, am I right in thinking? I mean, the whole border is kind of like, there's so many different warlords and gangs each out for their own, um, aggrandizement.

[00:11:40] You know, the whole kind of vulnerability there is just so complex. Is that, is that how you would understand it as well? I mean, it's gang worse. It's not just the gangs, it's the military. So the military junta, they own 30% of these scam compounds. So they're actually the protection. They overthrew the government. They did a coup. And like just around 20, 21 or something.

[00:12:05] And then the reason for that coup was because they have a stake in these compounds. So, you know, the government shut them down and they shut down the government. So now you have them and the Chinese triads. So the triads are running these compounds while the military is protecting them. And it's a lawless zone, the special economic zones. I mean, 120. What are you training for then? Who are you, who invites you to, to share your forensic information?

[00:12:36] Who, who invites you to train them? I can't, I'm trying to sort of get a sense in the middle of all this chaos as to, to who would work, who you would work with. You know, Homeland Security trained, FBI trained, Interpol trained through ACFCS. So the Association of Certified Financial Crime Specialists. Okay. They brought me into the work. Yeah. Follow the money. Yeah.

[00:13:01] So that's what I think helped boost getting the Prince Group seizure of 15 billion. Oh, wow. Because I've been working on this so long. Okay. You were involved in that. I can't really say for certain. Yeah. But I'm pretty sure based on the work that I've did, that helped boost them going after these people. Okay. Understood. Understood.

[00:13:25] I mean, I mean, it's one thing doing the analysis, but you seem to be involved in more than that. You're actually taking that analysis out and trying to make it a reality and share it to it, to become an operational help to people. Yeah. It's like tell documents, several hundred pages just to send it freely to everybody.

[00:13:51] You know, if you try to get paid for it, sometimes it won't get done. People won't be interested. But if you freely share it, then they freely share it and it gets to the right person. That's what I've found works. If you get something to the right person, it only takes one person to get the job done. And that's because, you know, influence or connections. Yeah. You did work with the United Nations, didn't you? At some points. Yeah. It was about eight engagements.

[00:14:20] I've done it in Algeria, done it in Egypt. So I went there and I spoke twice. One on blockchain forensics, another one on dark web intelligence. And in Serbia, I went there for the digital forensics conference that was sponsored by UNDP. That's the development program. And I've worked with UNODC, which is the Office of Drugs and Crime. Worked with many of them. There's so many different acronyms.

[00:14:46] I just can't understand that given your track record, which is a good one, you haven't actually, people are reluctant still to fund you properly. That's what I find difficult to understand. I think majority had to do with the Department of Government efficiency when all the funding got shut down.

[00:15:07] Not only did human trafficking funding, counter-terrorism funding, child protection funding, and I can probably go on for another half hour just on this, but we're limited on time. So all funding got cut. And I'm here funding myself right now. Even people who used to fund me, they don't have any funding. Do you see anything, anything changing much? Because I know there was an awful lot shut down.

[00:15:32] I mean, I did some stuff with the Caribbean recently and the UN. And I mean, America pulled a lot of its funding out of its trafficking program, the trafficking program there by the UN. And that really caused an awful lot of trouble. And I imagine what you're saying is that's happening all over the place. Yep. They shut down all funding when Trump got in there. So I think he's slowly releasing funds to some worthy organizations.

[00:16:02] So that's what I meant about the light at the end of the tunnel. I mean, whoever it's coming from, whether it's somebody politically you agree with or disagree with, do you actually see it beginning to be released a bit? Yes, a bit. I've seen some stuff come up in the news, even though I don't watch the news. Sometimes it flashes by me and I'm like, finally. I mean, some organizations, I can do more with a zero budget than they can do with multiple billions. Okay. Say I'm listening to this, right?

[00:16:32] And I think, oh, wow, this guy's, you know, on the money. This guy seems to know what he's talking about and what he's talking about sounds really helpful to the work that we want to do. How do I get it? How do we get a hold of the work that you've done? I mean, because remember, we'll have a front page on this podcast where I can put links and sites and places like that. But I mean, how would people get a hold of you, Larry?

[00:17:00] They can get a hold of me, LinkedIn. I'll give you that link. I'll give you a link to probably this once I'm done at this country platform that has all 193 UN countries with all the risk breakdowns. This would be something that you would provide to financial institutions when they do their regulatory compliance or any money laundering, their counter-terrorist financing.

[00:17:26] They work on watch lists, even their sanctions, negative news, court cases. So they'll be able to, you know, have a resource that will help them, you know, cut the money supply, hopefully, similar to what they did in Myanmar. No, that's fine. I mean, look, I mean, you know that I'm based in the UK. I mean, do you get enough support here at all? I mean, have you had any support from the UK?

[00:17:51] Negative. I've been lacking support for probably about two years now. I've been on my own doing this and working with different NGOs, but there's no budgets out there. So we're having a lot of issues. We rescued with ATB. I was doing some traveling and I was speaking at conferences and I was there visiting We Fight Monsters in Memphis and just doing a run through and review of their program.

[00:18:18] And it's amazing what they got going on. And prior to that, I was in North Carolina. Prior to that, I was in Mexico. We were doing a counter-child trafficking op. And the people who funded me there were orphanage. Right? So that, you know, orphanage funding a counter-child trafficking op. Yeah, I know. Well, I mean, OK, yeah, you've got to take it when you get it. But at the same time, that's really kind of quite extraordinary, isn't it?

[00:18:48] Yeah. So I'll give you a link to the Village Global. You know, they're fighting against child trafficking. They've had probably almost 3,000 rescued children. I've vetted them heavily. And usually I'm very distrustful of some of these organizations. But, you know, they made me teary-eyed multiple times. You know, once they rescue a kid, they bring them to like Walmart and they buy them toothbrushes and toothpaste. And they buy them new clothes so that because nobody wants to be in the clothes that they were trafficked in.

[00:19:17] And it's just, you know, they got them an ice cap of caramel mochiato. And this girl cried that we rescued from Mexico. But, you know, because most of them never had a birthday or birthday cake before or ice cream. That's the sad part of some of these rescues. I don't know. As you said, you get teary-eyed and it's just so kind of upsetting sometimes.

[00:19:41] I mean, even though you've done it for years and years and years, you still can't help coming across some situations that really break you up. Listen, answer me one question here, because I've been doing this podcast for now for about 13 years. And one thing has always struck me. And that is and I'd like your opinion on it, because you've been kind of involved so deeply in all of this all across the world.

[00:20:07] Do you think that there's enough coordination because there's so many of these organizations doing what you would consider to be good things, whether they're advocating, whether they're spreading information, whether they're rescuing, whether they're whatever or, you know, passing on kind of awareness raising about trafficking in all its forms, slavery in all its forms, whatever, whatever, whatever. Is it coordinated enough? Oh, definitely not. Not at all.

[00:20:35] It's usually, you know, what's the what's the thing in the news or who's being destabilized today or, you know, like, why are we just hearing about Haiti or some other countries like Myanmar is not even on the map. Like people weren't even looking at it a few years ago. Yeah. The military overthrows the government. I mean, why aren't people cleaning up the worst countries in the world? Who would you look to, to coordinate it?

[00:21:04] In your opinion, say you say you have the gift to actually declare that or actually organize that. Who would be best placed in the world to actually coordinate? Are you talking about United Nations or are you talking about the big powers? What would you say? I would say the big powers should be joining in and doing this. I mean, but I mean, Russia, they're just looking for lands. China, who knows what their intentions are. US. I mean, there's some good intentions there.

[00:21:34] There's some not so good intentions. Yeah, if you know what I mean. I do. I do. They just want power and control when you should really just look for peace and unity. And, you know, yeah, I think I sent you the link on the United Nations Sustainable Development Goals. Okay, if you did, I haven't opened it yet. But listen, but all of this, I'll make sure it's available. But I mean, I just always despair. I've got to be honest, Larry, I just you despair sometimes.

[00:22:04] You must be doubly despairing about the things that you think could be done, the things that you see needing mending, the things that you people that you see needing rescuing or are prevented from being hurt. And yet nothing happens. It's so shocking, isn't it? Yeah, and that's why I kind of point towards these United Nations Sustainable Development Goals. I mean, there was one proof of concept that was done.

[00:22:31] They provided $3 a day. So then the parents stopped selling their kids. So that's a good thing. They started teaching the teachers advanced concepts like machine learning, AI, robotics. So then the students are getting scholarships. And then after that, three years, I think it was, and the parents stopped getting that universal benefit. They refused it.

[00:22:58] Now that's honorable because their children are supporting them. Not only that, the crime rate dropped over 90% because the community started pulling together. So just... But that was that. They had their legs cut from under them for that, didn't they, after a while? They couldn't maintain it. They didn't maintain it, did they? It was maintained. It was? Yeah. Okay. Like, it's so flourishing because they made these certain changes that fixed the entire community.

[00:23:26] They worked together, dropped the crime rate. Students are getting scholarships and supporting their parents. $3 a day for three years and teaching the teachers advanced concepts. Not a lot of money, is it? That's like... They covered three SDGs there out of 17, and it fixed everything. Yeah. Yeah. Answer me a question. Answer me a quick question on that just before we move on. I mean, I did some work many years ago in Sri Lanka, okay? Yeah.

[00:23:56] And at the time, I don't know if it's still the same, it's probably still the same, that there's no welfare system in that country. Yeah. And so, when I went there and I walked along the beach in Colombo, right? You know, and within five minutes, I was offered children under five, you know, for the price of a pint of beer. And the point about that is obviously that's going to be stopped. That's going to be interrupted. Yeah.

[00:24:21] But at the same time, say a family of eight who had eight children, there was no income, no work. Yeah. Only the youngest child was being prostituted out, and that was the only income going to the family. Now, of course you've got to stop that, but then they don't eat. It's an absolute no way to... Right. No way. You've got to look for the core of the issue, and that's my proof of concept. You give them some money, they stop selling their kids. Yeah. They start getting, you know, $3 a day.

[00:24:51] Yeah. And that problem per family, and that could be fixed. That's what I'm saying. It's such an easy problem to fix. Where was that originally that you came across at first, that kind of, that fix? Cambodia. Cambodia, right. Okay. Yeah. But the Pacific Rim is sometimes quite a mess for that kind of thing, isn't it? All the countries there on the Pacific Rim. Yeah. It's a lot of poverty, a lot of third world countries. A lot of corruption.

[00:25:20] I found that there was no... It was either first world or third world. There was nothing in between. That was my experience. Yeah. It's either good or it's bad. Okay. Tell us a little bit about now where you think this is going, because you've developed this fantastic resource. Okay. And it's growing all the time. And you're adding to it. I know that all the time. And you've got about a hundred and as you said, 193 countries that you could provide forensic

[00:25:49] analysis of and all these different vulnerabilities and kind of issues to do with whether it's government, whether it's infrastructure compliance, whether it's security, crime, whatever. But where are you now looking to take it, develop it further? Well, I'm looking to get it funding. I'm looking to develop these communities about something called the Black Rose Initiative,

[00:26:14] where, you know, non-privileged people are able to thrive and make sure that we actually cover all the 17 sustainable development goals. So these communities are built to, you know, adhere to these goals. You know, no poverty, no homelessness. I mean, this can easily be done in a community. Why can't it be done in all communities? And we're going to open source that project.

[00:26:41] Tell us a little bit about the we, because I know, you know, you've devoted your life to this. I know that. But unfortunately, and I'm not telling you anything you don't know already. Ultimately, Larry Cameron can't save the world. But so who do you need? Who are you working with at the moment? Or who do you need support from? I know you need funding that that I think you've made that obvious and you really deserve it. But do you need others?

[00:27:08] And whom would you benefit from working with? United Nations, Interpol, governments, NGOs. I say we because, you know, I have people who have the same vision as me. And I found out that saying I, I, I, I is not really productive, as people think. So I say we, but right now this is what I'm trying to do. Yeah.

[00:27:34] But, you know, I translate that to we, which includes my partners would do it if they had the funds, they would join me. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. All right. Now, some of the stuff that you've talked about, I mean, I'm, I've drawn up while we're talking here, I've pulled up your intelligence dashboard. Like I said, on, on Haiti. Okay. And it, it, it, it just looks such a mess. Yeah.

[00:28:01] So absolutely kind of inherently kind of damaged, you know, with, it for me, like gangs controlling 80% of Port-au-Prince, which is the capital, isn't it? So, you know, I mean, how the heck are you going to clear out that mess? I mean, without a huge investment from, from whether it's military or whether it's financial or whether it's humanitarian.

[00:28:26] I mean, that even a small place like Haiti is going to take a massive investment of time and effort, isn't it? It's going to be a lot worse if it doesn't get taken care of. It's costing people more, more to respond to humanitarian crisis, more for corruption, more for, you know, destruction, more for terrorism. Everything here is going to make things more expensive and worse the longer we let it go on.

[00:28:52] Why don't we just go in there, clean it up and reap the benefits? Yeah. And benefits are things like... It sounds very simple, but it does make such sense, doesn't it? Yeah. I just don't know why anybody else has the same vision. Yeah. Difficult to work with some of these orbs. Oh, Haiti's a lost cause. Well, no, it's not. It can't be. It can't be. You can't, we can't, I mean, the millions of human beings who are the victims there,

[00:29:23] you know, can't be just written off. I tell you one thing I pulled up was what information you pulled on Venezuela, who's ranked as a, what is a tier three for human trafficking. Could you, could you just explain a little bit about the tier system? So that's the trafficking in persons report. It's done every year. So there's, there's tier two, tier three. And there's like, for instance, Haiti's on a tier two watch list. Okay.

[00:29:51] They do not the minimum standards, but they're making efforts. Right. Okay. Venezuela, there is no effort. So that's why they're at a tier three. So Venezuela is worse than Haiti in terms of the effort. Is that how it works at the moment? How it's been judged? I mean, I don't know who's, I know there's a lot of NGOs in there and there was a lot of response. I know a few of my, those that I was working with are, we're doing operations in Haiti. Hmm.

[00:30:20] I mean, it's still the gangs. I mean, can't really look down on the gangs fully. They're victims too. I mean, they have no need to be able to eat. I mean, it's kind of, you know, a chicken and egg scenario. You know, you can't get these gangs unless you offer them real jobs, unless you offer them income, unless you offer them opportunities. And there's none right now in Haiti. Right.

[00:30:46] I've done some thinking that one of the projects I want to get involved with next is looking at supply chains and the exploitation within supply chains, you know, whether it's food or whether it's clothing or whatever. Some of, some of these third world countries, you know, the, the, I mean, you know this, but I mean, the exploitation that goes on there to deliver our food or to deliver our clothing or whatever to the first world countries is just criminal.

[00:31:17] Do you come up, do you come across much effort to, what would be the word shine light on that? Because again, it's like the conversation we just had. Sometimes that's the only income that families have these young children making clothes or, you know, gathering prawns off, off the, you know, off the Pacific Rim and then being killed, which is what I've been made aware of and so on.

[00:31:44] So, yeah, I mean, you know, have you, have you come across much effort being made on that front? Well, I've been researching different supply chains. Yeah.

[00:32:22] I'm not getting an education, but they're getting brain damage. It's always been the case. It's always been the case. I live in a part of England that used to have a lot of lead mining. And back in about 150 years ago, kids who are age six and seven, because they were small, were sent down the tunnels to scrape the lead off, you know, the roof after it had been kind of blasted. And they had about a lifespan of three years. Exactly.

[00:32:52] And it's just the same in whatever particular product they're actually producing. I'm guessing that in the places that you're describing. So I could show you some of the mining platforms I have. I will show you after. I'll send you some links. But the entire supply chain is just a mess from the bottom to the top. Yeah. And if you look at all the corruption, all the sanctions, you wouldn't believe the amount of sanctions against some of these mining companies. You look at the negative news.

[00:33:22] You look at the court cases. You look at the human rights violations. You look at the human trafficking in them. I mean, the same as I would rate a country, I can rate a mining company. Yeah. Yeah. Because profit, profit's the absolute, isn't it? It's the only thing that people are interested in.

[00:33:42] Because, and it still will continue to be as long as they're never really properly challenged or if they've got enough money to kind of, I mean, I remember one of the Asian countries that I kind of did some work in, you know, where the most expensive

[00:34:00] top lawyers there only cost about $200 a week, you know, and so that there was very little incentive or intelligence to really properly challenge things apart from the corruption side as well. It was just incredible. And I would really appreciate that, Gary, if you, Larry, if you would, because I can, I want to start developing some programs on that. So perhaps afterwards we can talk about that.

[00:34:27] Even the certification programs, we could, we could actually have another webinar just on the mining, but even the responsible jewelry council. Consider it done. Consider it done. Absolutely. I mean, okay. I've got about five, I think we've got about five minutes if that's okay with you left. I mean, I don't want to leave this one without talking about anything that you particularly wanted to mention.

[00:34:55] Were there any areas of work that you wanted to particularly mention or shout out to that, that we haven't covered? I mean, it's such a huge, we're talking the world here, Larry, aren't we? Yeah. I'd like to give a shout out to anti-trafficking bureau. We fight monsters. There are some NGOs that are doing really good in the space. Otherwise, if you're looking for a platform, reach out to me. I'll create one for you.

[00:35:25] You know, not looking for just funding. I will actually put in the work in order to develop platforms for people. I know that pretty much all the NGOs I worked for were having issues with funding so that they can create these platforms. So I'm trying to fill that gap. All right. Well, just when we finish this call, I'll have a word with you about what you think is best to develop that. I mean, more power to you, Larry.

[00:35:52] I mean, you're really battling on here like kind of Don Quixote in some respects. You know, it sounds very, very much like, you know, you shouldn't be so, I know you're not alone. And I know there's lots of NGOs and individuals that you've been working with that are on your side and supporting you and whatever. But it sounds like you're not as supported as you could be. I'm struggling.

[00:36:21] I do extra jobs to eat. All right. Well, listen, let's I tell you what, and let's make this official. We'll do another another program very shortly. OK, and on what we discuss after we finish this one as to the best way forward. I really want to because all my working life has been involved in actually trying in my own way to highlight the vulnerabilities in the world, the exploitation in the world.

[00:36:51] Mainly, I've got to say children. But as as as the programs going on, all people, all ages, all families, all individuals, adults as well. So I'd really appreciate that if we can have a kind of a session of looking at somewhere best to focus next. That's all.

[00:37:11] So in the meantime, I'll for the people listening, I'll make sure that we get quite a bit on the front page about how to contact and how to read about what you've been doing. And I suppose I've got to say, Larry, on behalf, on behalf of all those victims and hopefully survivors, I would like to say thank you on their behalf to all the work that you've been doing. So thanks, Larry. And I will speak to you online very soon.

[00:37:40] And when we finish this, I'll talk to you again a bit. So, Larry Cameron, thank you very much indeed. Thanks for having me again.