David Mandel International author and trainer on domestic violence

[00:00:01] Welcome back everybody to Thoughts On The Social World, the Social World podcast. I'm Dave Niven and

[00:00:19] as usual it's a delight to have your company. Now you all know that from time to time I come

[00:00:26] across a real nugget of good practice and good thinking and I don't actually review and talk about

[00:00:34] many books on the podcast but some just beg themselves to be talked about and today

[00:00:41] I'm delighted to be joined by my guest David Mandel who is an internationally acclaimed author

[00:00:48] and his book Stop Blaming Mothers and Ignoring Fathers has been out now for a couple of months

[00:00:55] and of course as always on the front page of the podcast all the details about how to get a

[00:01:02] hold of it, how to find out about it, how to review it, whatever will be there. So welcome David

[00:01:09] without any more ado. David thank you so much for having me on your podcast and I'm honored that

[00:01:15] I'm one of the few authors that you interview so thank you again for having me. You're very welcome

[00:01:21] now. I mean obviously an author, a successful author, international author, yeah but you've not

[00:01:28] always done that and I wonder if you could just give us a quick brief kind of run through your history

[00:01:34] and how you kind of your professional evolution if you like. Sure currently just to kind of

[00:01:41] you know put opinion on the CEO of the Safe with the Other Institute and founder of the

[00:01:47] Institute and creator of the Safe with the Other Model which is reflected in the book

[00:01:52] but my origins you know I became interested in the issue of violence against women, male

[00:01:58] violence against women really specifically in university and that would have been in the

[00:02:03] mid-80s and you know without going into too much detail I grew up in New York City at a very

[00:02:09] dangerous time you know there was thousands of murders a year in New York City and it was

[00:02:13] it was it was it was an unsafe place by any measure. I left to go to uni in a small town

[00:02:22] outside of New York in rural area and and felt like guys being let out of prison and so that was

[00:02:27] my experience as a male and but I quickly learned that women friends of mine, women I dated,

[00:02:35] that their experience of safety was different and that they were worried about threats

[00:02:39] from men and and I can't David I can't tell you to this day still and obviously I've spent a

[00:02:45] lot of time thinking about it why I didn't push that away why I personalized it why I thought it

[00:02:50] was really important for me to it kind of disturbed me that they felt threatened by men and what

[00:02:55] did that mean? I did not that disbelieve them I believed them and took it on and and it

[00:03:00] wasn't until I really heard a story of men marching against male violence against women

[00:03:06] in St. Louis that I heard a radio story that I kind of something happened inside of me that I

[00:03:12] really had this moment of of connection saying oh there are men who actually taking a stand

[00:03:19] and your awakening on this then was sort of beat by peace. That's right and and it was it was

[00:03:27] you know it really set me on this journey that I've been on my entire adult life where I

[00:03:31] did work in uni around education to men around sexual assault you know anti-sexual assault work

[00:03:40] homophobia work anti-homophobia work all this stuff and then when I left uni I looked for a job

[00:03:46] I was working part-time as a vegan chef but I was looking for something in this area and I found a

[00:03:51] job running perpetrator intervention groups or men's behavior change groups or

[00:03:57] batter intervention groups depending where you are in the world and and that was my my my formal

[00:04:03] professional entry into this world where I did work with with men who've been arrested at that point

[00:04:10] and started there. From being a chef straight into that my goodness that was just incredible

[00:04:17] it must have been quite a culture shock for you. Well I was already in the world of thinking

[00:04:23] about violence against women but I was I was really looking for balance. You know the creative side of

[00:04:28] me was really kind of taken care of by the vegan chef work and I cooked baked bread and then I

[00:04:36] and then I started running groups at mostly in the evening and I did I did both for four or five

[00:04:42] years and I had to felt like I had to pick one to kind of dedicate myself to one and and I

[00:04:47] I really decided to dedicate myself to this issue around addressing male violence against women

[00:04:55] family violence eventually grew out of that direct counseling work

[00:05:02] with men to to include systems change work training and so the model kind of had those roots but

[00:05:09] kind of expanded and grew out of that. Okay well look let's talk a little bit about the book then

[00:05:13] if that's okay at this point. Yeah. Stop blaming mothers and ignoring fathers sort of how to transform

[00:05:20] the way we keep children safe from domestic violence was the kind of heading of it really. Do you want

[00:05:27] to expand on that a bit? Yeah you know the the book was really you know a it's not a culmination

[00:05:36] but it's really based on the work I've been doing for 30 plus years in in this space which

[00:05:42] really involved developing the safe and together model which is really about giving systems particularly

[00:05:48] statutory child welfare but other systems now family courts we're working with family courts

[00:05:54] around the globe we're working with statutory child welfare we're working with child and family

[00:05:58] agencies you know it's a model that's been taken up in North America Europe Asia Pacific region

[00:06:04] you know we train thousands of social workers and and other professionals a year

[00:06:09] but this this book was was kind of a reflection of all that activity in some sense the the activity

[00:06:16] came first the the institute came first the book has come later and it's really my

[00:06:22] sharing in a very conversational voice about how gender double standards around parenting

[00:06:30] particularly have really shape practice so it's not you know and David you

[00:06:36] you know you're a social worker you you know you're a leader in the field and and so much of

[00:06:42] what we do isn't written down but there's a culture has been a culture of failure to protect

[00:06:48] and mother blaming and father ignoring in in the human services and the children getting caught

[00:06:53] in the crossfire yeah because what happens is when we create these unrealistic expectations for mom

[00:07:00] that she's supposed to jump out of a burning building to save her kids then she's supposed

[00:07:03] to put herself in jeopardy that we when we ignore the things she's doing the right in the context

[00:07:09] of domestic violence and just boil everything down to leave leave leave yeah and we don't name

[00:07:16] that when it's a male domestic violence perpetrator which is most of the time

[00:07:20] is a father or boyfriend that his behavior and choice is the source of the harm to the kid

[00:07:25] that we don't just name that it's the most simplest thing and again I know you you've

[00:07:29] seen this you know where instead of saying the kids are exposed to domestic violence or the couple

[00:07:34] has a history of domestic violence we teach people to say dad's engaged in this pattern of

[00:07:39] behavior for instance right it's really simple but that's that's how you actually stop ignoring

[00:07:44] the father's role in the domestic violence incident yeah and I mean ultimately the the the only

[00:07:51] thing was and sometimes followed up without any kind of investigation or forensic kind of work

[00:07:57] with the father it's just the ultimate is just to remove the body and that's it really sometimes

[00:08:03] you're absolutely right it's sort of good riddance you know um easy we get her to leave

[00:08:10] and even if the leaving disrupts housing for the kids disrupts education for the kids

[00:08:14] we still have this sort of medieval expectation and I don't know if that's the right word

[00:08:19] but that it's the victim's job to fix this I always felt David I don't know if this has been

[00:08:26] an experience of yours that the absolute weight of responsibility on victims of domestic violence

[00:08:35] who have to leave with children right and set up on their own somewhere or even in a supported

[00:08:42] shelter there's still responsibilities for you know the housing department the the the

[00:08:48] income finances you know talking to welfare getting kind of some support for the children

[00:08:55] schooling education everything the whole list and I know that someplace he's tried to make it a kind

[00:09:01] of a one-stop supermarket if you like for for women who were survivors but it's not really in my

[00:09:10] understanding a universal kind of approach and response if you like in this country there's

[00:09:17] an awful lot of resources still needed I think you know you yeah sorry David

[00:09:24] is that your experience that's all I was gonna ask you know yes and I think it's it I would say

[00:09:29] it even goes to this tremendous burden put on them and it's and that gender double standard

[00:09:34] which I always say we have much harder expectations of mums than dads is is also means

[00:09:39] and not only is she expected to fix our thing clean up the mass right and and you know and

[00:09:44] I give this example that you know just the reality of you know domestic violence incident

[00:09:50] and let's say the dad breaks the glass coffee table well um you know that there's a toddler in the

[00:09:56] house and uh you know that the child could get their their feet cut if they come out of the

[00:10:01] bedroom let's say and all of a sudden you know where we're like okay so what happens there in

[00:10:06] that environment who caused the harm well the the father's violence created the danger

[00:10:11] father leaves or gets arrested or gets kicked out of the house well who actually cleans up the

[00:10:14] glass well she's usually the victim mom right so she's doing this extra work she's often not

[00:10:19] recognized for it and we're not saying to that dad hey or that we're saying the answer is to get

[00:10:26] him out of the house like you said like remove the body and the issue is he's still the father

[00:10:30] he's still got legal rights this case may move into a family court if there's a separation

[00:10:35] and in family court they're often going to say well that's what he did to the mom

[00:10:39] and it's not relevant but look she is having housing issues she's having mental health issues

[00:10:45] often caused by the domestic violence perpetrators behavior and and so the imbalance continues

[00:10:50] into the family court sphere um you know so we really see this gender imbalance about differing

[00:10:56] expectations of moms and dads really kind of follow the family and so that burden you're

[00:11:01] talking about is is is is just cumulative it's it's kind of it's got it's a lot of layers to it

[00:11:09] and it really profoundly like you said earlier impacts the children through the way we respond

[00:11:14] to things I often find that the and it's still a lot to this day spilling over into the family

[00:11:21] court is a kind of a court attitude still which is really all about I mean in this case in this

[00:11:28] country in England where I am it's all about winning in court even in family courts and it

[00:11:36] depends what the level of representation you have etc etc that helps and often an awful lot of the

[00:11:42] families that we see the kind of the ones that are dislocated if you like come from

[00:11:49] fairly impoverished backgrounds and have to just literally put up with whoever they're given

[00:11:54] as the kind of um state lawyer state solicitor and I often feel very sorry in situations like that

[00:12:01] because sometimes the in France for example they have these used days on form I don't know if you've

[00:12:06] come across that particular role where the judge can actually even if he wants to go and live

[00:12:12] with the family for a week to find out the truth is that something come across no I have

[00:12:20] been that's so interesting the first time I heard that but I think it's it's really

[00:12:24] interesting I think you know you're right to point out the gaps in the education of the

[00:12:28] legal profession I do see that globally and you know part of what I you know we've been

[00:12:32] doing work with family law settings uh you know for over a number of years United States and we're

[00:12:37] starting to do some in Wales with cough crusts in the United Kingdom and but but our biggest

[00:12:41] piece of work has been three years of work with the family law um uh federal system in

[00:12:48] Australia you know so less less population than the UK you know but more space and and we've got a

[00:12:54] chance to train uh judges um uh solicitors who have delegated traditional authority and report

[00:13:03] writers probably maybe most importantly and two of those report writers are are interviewed in the

[00:13:08] book you know the book has interviews with practitioners who use the safer together model

[00:13:12] with survivors and kind of outlines a bunch of different case scenarios but the thing I'm

[00:13:17] probably most proud of at this point and one of the things I'm most proud of this point is

[00:13:21] we've been doing this whole of court approach you know Australia for three years and and we're

[00:13:26] starting to see dividends and a culture shift because like I want to go back to this you're

[00:13:31] never going to see written down in a statutory child welfare policy manual um blame domestic

[00:13:38] grounds victims you're just not going to see that phrase but we all know that the practice

[00:13:45] shows up that way in many cases well I think something you've said there made me just wonder

[00:13:50] and I totally agree with you if that's if I took you correctly yeah the most important thing and

[00:13:57] look at the stuff you've been doing in Australia you've just used as an example right but I

[00:14:01] suspect that you realize as well the most important thing is finding an accurate and sensible way

[00:14:07] of how to measure change in the work yeah the change in the work we're doing is that what

[00:14:15] you're saying David yeah yeah I mean and change with you know in the if you like even in the lives

[00:14:22] of the people you're working with or in the practice of those you're training you know it's how to

[00:14:28] measure the influence you're having because I think that I suspect you are having influence but

[00:14:34] it's essentially being able to actually also just demonstrate it and that would help a lot

[00:14:38] of people understand and actually um be less kind of um well we would have embraced what you're

[00:14:45] saying more and quicker and quicker well we you know we have data that we've collected on the model

[00:14:51] over the years and data keeps you know really you know coming out for instance there's two

[00:14:56] there's a we're working with respect in uh in in England and um and whales you know respect UK

[00:15:06] the the the peak men's behavior change organization to do work in London through partnerships with

[00:15:11] local authorities and Dr. Liz Kelly has produced a report recently on that effort showing impact

[00:15:18] on social work practice the improvement service in Scotland just recently came out with a report

[00:15:22] so some very UK focused reports have come out recently um research team at a university of Edinburgh

[00:15:29] under John Devaney and Jane Callahan you know identify safety together as as the most

[00:15:37] commonly referenced child protection domestic abuse multi-agency kind of framework

[00:15:44] but more maybe more importantly is very pro actually if you're getting it does I mean we

[00:15:52] really have you know we're a small organization but with a big footprint we have um 100 partner

[00:15:58] agencies or so globally we have we have about 300 certified trainers delivering the model you know

[00:16:04] tens of thousands of hours of the model get delivered every year across the globe through

[00:16:08] those certified trainers um so we really have big ambitions that that the model really

[00:16:15] you know can be used to reduce unnecessary out of home placements we have

[00:16:20] suggestive data around that that it can improve social worker morale and retention we have suggestive

[00:16:26] data around that um we really you know we do our own evaluate we reinvest in evaluation so we've

[00:16:32] got training data that shows satisfied high levels of satisfaction and learning from our

[00:16:37] training all that's in the book by the way kind of we try to capture some of that data

[00:16:41] in the book I was going to ask about that make sure people know what's in your book I mean

[00:16:46] I remember when I was a young social worker just newly qualified there was a facility available

[00:16:51] it was in an old hospital so we called it a hospital but it was actually that whole families

[00:16:56] could be taken in and live there for say six months nine months if if they had a housing thing their

[00:17:03] tendency would be maintained and frozen the the parents if they work could go to work from

[00:17:08] there and the children could go to school but several times during the week there were

[00:17:13] kind of mandatory family sessions with um well the professional is involved that you would expect so

[00:17:22] I always felt that was quite good but now the resources needed to maintain that

[00:17:28] just aren't available and that model I don't see happening in many places

[00:17:33] would you think that would be a help if you come across that in other countries

[00:17:38] you know I mean what I've seen is some holo family responses in the US where

[00:17:42] they're working with the perpetrator the survivor and the kids you know but but but

[00:17:47] clinically out you know out in not necessarily in a in a housing situation we I've seen some

[00:17:53] programming for perpetrators in western Australia that lets them be residential and kind of contained

[00:17:59] and sort of supported so I think we're seeing little bits and pieces of this but you'd asked

[00:18:03] a question David earlier they don't want to skip over about what is the book

[00:18:07] and you know and and so I talked about the gender double standards come embedded in the title

[00:18:13] but the but a lot of the book there's six chapters that are that are dedicated to

[00:18:17] to six different professional myths that really can um that are very dominant in the field

[00:18:26] and that don't always line up with the lived experience of families and also don't always

[00:18:30] help professionals and so um I'll just give you a feel for one of them but there's six and

[00:18:36] that's kind of forms the guts of the book you know so the one chapter is called the myth of

[00:18:40] the child witness right and and we you know I think we're so used to using that language

[00:18:45] child witness the violence children exposed to violence and in that chapter I kind of um

[00:18:51] pick apart one the bet I mean talk about the benefits obviously kids are really impacted

[00:18:55] by seeing and hearing violence it's absolutely true and that that model that language actually

[00:19:03] in many ways has some built-in barriers to our success in this way so one is the language of

[00:19:09] the myth of child the witness doesn't name the perpetrator you know it it it doesn't it doesn't

[00:19:15] identify them as having a parental risk relationship that they're betraying by being abusive you

[00:19:21] know so you you miss out on how I'm making the perpetrator visible with that language of

[00:19:26] the child myth we focus on just seeing and hearing versus the wider pattern of course control

[00:19:32] which is in legislation in England and Wales and Scotland you know which is so much of course control

[00:19:38] isn't about physical violence but about controlling behaviors that might happen out of ear and eyeshot

[00:19:43] of kids or don't fit the trauma definition of violence and and so you know we really um with

[00:19:50] the safety of the model we we unpack that and give people an alternative approach that's more

[00:19:56] alignment with the lived experience of the family so we that chapter and like the other chapters we

[00:20:02] I tackle a myth I help people understand some of the gaps where the you know that children are

[00:20:07] targeted they're not just witnesses they're tools they're not just witnesses they're resilient

[00:20:12] they're not just witnesses all that passivity built into that language makes it harder to

[00:20:16] see kids strengths so it doesn't really align up with a human rights perspective and and and

[00:20:23] so the book kind of in that chapter as an example the other chapter is then says save it together

[00:20:28] helps you identify the perpetrator put them in a parenting role gives you multiple pathways to

[00:20:33] understand harm to kids not just witnessing and so I break down both the problem in each chapter

[00:20:39] and then the solution we're offering through this this this approach what are the headings just

[00:20:44] so that people can understand headings of the other couple of chapters that you didn't mention

[00:20:49] would you yeah you know they're they're a little bit provocative in some ways that's the myth of

[00:20:53] child witness the myth of the domestic violence incident the myth of parental alienation

[00:21:00] the myth of perpetrator accountability um the uh I'm not always forget what I was saying

[00:21:06] the myth that's in the myth of trauma informed but you know I should be looking at it but it

[00:21:11] you know it's the myth of trauma informed practice maybe the last one I think that's

[00:21:15] the myth of failure to protect I'm sorry the myth of failure to protect okay and you know

[00:21:21] it's you know I always I should be paying more attention to the book chapters when I'm looking

[00:21:26] at but I've spent so much time in them they're all in my head sometimes I have a hard time getting

[00:21:30] them out but but it's you know it's David it's sort of each of these things you know um I don't

[00:21:39] I like I'm a I'm trained as a clinician and so I believe in trauma I I I think trauma informed

[00:21:47] practice and trauma treatment is so critical and for instance in that chapter we identify it

[00:21:52] but just like this um focus on the incident of domestic violence that primacy of physical

[00:21:58] violence and again this is what those those laws in England, Wales, Scotland have really

[00:22:02] tried to do is say look we can't look through the um the lens of just the primacy of physical

[00:22:07] violence and we want to understand really what's going on we need to think about entrapment we need

[00:22:11] to think about um we need to think about uh impacting functioning and so the lock on the

[00:22:18] freezer I'm gonna give you one example you know that lock on the freezer this is a real case that

[00:22:22] I was involved with or the traffic cones in the hallway so the lock in the freezer was

[00:22:27] dad saying mom and the kids are eating too much meat or the traffic cones in the hallway

[00:22:33] where he was telling everybody how they should walk through the hall well those are really very

[00:22:40] profound examples of control right but they're not gonna they're not going to show up in the

[00:22:45] trot the traditional trauma lens or they're not going to show up in the traditional child

[00:22:50] witness lens and they're not going to show up in the traditional um domestic violence

[00:22:54] incident lens you understand what I'm saying so I'm trying to get people to say wait a second

[00:22:58] you can't just use this incident based approach you can't just think about our kids seeing violence

[00:23:03] and that's the nexus between harm to kids because then we're not really meeting the needs of families

[00:23:09] and reflecting the reality let me ask you a couple of questions uh and then we can have

[00:23:15] we better have a wrap up a bit after a couple of questions firstly does sibling

[00:23:21] violence come into any of your uh considerations at the moment

[00:23:27] you know it's it's it's not it's not something we focus on a lot currently in our work you know I

[00:23:33] just had a meeting today we're looking at adult protective services and the implications of the

[00:23:38] model had for that I think we also do a lot of we're doing more work in the juvenile justice

[00:23:44] space you know whether it's youth who are engaging in dating brands or youth who are

[00:23:50] who get caught up in the system because they're protecting their mom for instance that's that's

[00:23:53] not unusual well that would be that would be the area that obviously I think because of our

[00:23:58] conversation but at the same time though just general um I mean sibling the extremes of

[00:24:07] sibling bullying for example um you know it's it's not in my memory in a way it's it's not

[00:24:16] a big percentage but it's very real to those experiences sure sure I think part of what we're

[00:24:23] about you know is is helping break down silos and connecting the dots and so my first reaction to that

[00:24:29] is you know just like the juvenile justice work you know working with with delinquency a lot of

[00:24:35] of those those probation or other folks will say well we know these kids are coming from

[00:24:39] households with domestic violence in one breath and the next breath they'll say well the issue

[00:24:44] is mom can't control the kids or can't set boundaries the kid's not listening to mom's boundaries where

[00:24:49] she says don't play video games or come home certain time or don't use your phone and and those

[00:24:54] become disconnected statements because for me it's like well if you've got a male caregiver who's

[00:25:00] like undercutting mom's authority or goading the kids or using the kid as a pawn then or the

[00:25:07] kid's been traumatized by by domestic violence over the years then of course you're going to

[00:25:11] get this behavior in the kids of course you're going to get a challenge to mom's authority

[00:25:15] let's connect the dots and just like that with the bullying my my assumption is some portion of

[00:25:21] those kids are living in homes where that behavior is being modeled for them and we need to address

[00:25:29] that context you know and unfortunately social media doesn't help very much either um can I

[00:25:39] just ask you a final question slightly more in an upbeat note I think sure um anecdotally I've

[00:25:46] got to be honest with you I'm under the impression that certainly in the UK instances of known

[00:25:53] domestic violence are rising but on the other hand obviously listening to yourself and and

[00:26:00] others that you know have been kind of talking about the field you begin to think that there

[00:26:05] might be some cause for optimism and where do you fall on this can I answer you know both ways

[00:26:14] you know I feel both you know it's hard not to feel the pain of the you know the

[00:26:19] continuing problem which is so huge I mean I follow a lot of social media and I'm very

[00:26:24] connected in the UK and in Australia New Zealand places we're working you know for

[00:26:29] instance in there's a there's a there's a famicide watch in Australia and this year we are in April

[00:26:36] and they've had maybe around 30 murders of women you know since you know the beginning of the

[00:26:42] year just in this year and just the pain and the grief and the loss is just is just beyond and

[00:26:49] you know the loss of kids in family courts to perpetrators for instance just there's no way to

[00:26:55] kind of feel good about that right because it's there's so much of it going on still and

[00:27:04] at the same time I guess the you know I just talked to today you know a group of our newest

[00:27:11] certified trainers out of Glasgow you know and they finished up a really robust train the trainer

[00:27:18] program and and they're really their passion advocates for safe and together their passion

[00:27:24] advocates for transforming their statutory child welfare system and they're they're just

[00:27:30] saying look you know we just see more evidence in our cases for document documentation of

[00:27:35] partnering we're just hearing a you know ripple effect to the community about people really

[00:27:40] saying this is the better way to go for us you know and so when I see those things I see

[00:27:46] and hear stories from people who pick up the model and use it to kind of combine it with their

[00:27:54] their passion their zeal their advocacy their their clinical skills that's when I get heart and

[00:28:00] David because you know because those are whatever the bigger issue is those are real changes

[00:28:05] happening up there. I'm really pleased that you can because you obviously genuinely get a great

[00:28:11] kind of feeling from you know seeing people's reactions and kind of if you like the work

[00:28:18] progressed well look David it's been a real pleasure talking to you I mean one minute okay I

[00:28:24] give you we've got one minute now anybody listening who's a practitioner or whatever

[00:28:29] discipline they're involved with but that kind of touches this field or maybe even somebody

[00:28:35] that wants to think about becoming a trainer with you at some point or whatever what would be

[00:28:41] well tell talk to them for a minute would you yeah sure I mean one of these things you know go to

[00:28:47] go to our website safetyotherinsuit.com we've got a ton of free and and other resources available

[00:28:56] including information about trainer certification free papers to download links to our podcast

[00:29:03] partner with a survivor you know we've got tons of videos on our youtube channel just put in youtube

[00:29:08] safe and together you can also directly go to our we have got a virtual academy with a lot of e-learning

[00:29:14] courses some paid some free you can do our core training online or four day core online which is

[00:29:20] very skill based our supervisors managers training online so we have a tremendous amount of resources

[00:29:25] online and that is academy.safetyotherinsuit.com so that's that one all of these links will

[00:29:33] be on the property give them to you and then the book is available at amazon you know wherever you are

[00:29:39] you know just put in stop playing mothers and gnawing fathers in my name and into amazon

[00:29:45] and it will you can get in kindle you can get it in uh softcover hardcover the audio book will

[00:29:51] be coming out later this year all right well look it's nice david for you telling us all the

[00:29:56] things that you're doing and everything and um I really wish you success and continued success

[00:30:01] because it sounds like you've actually made a fantastic sort of um network um of people

[00:30:07] that you've now begun to work with and employ and train so yeah it's a pleasure talking to you

[00:30:15] I hope we maybe can talk again in the future maybe your next book very optimistic david thank you

[00:30:22] thank you for your film maybe I don't know who knows David thanks ever so much