Christina Gabbitas is a writer, educator, Honorary Member of the NSPCC Council, Coronation Champion, and founder of the Children Literature Festivals charity, who was awarded a Prime Ministers Points of Light Award in 2023.
We talk of the critical situation threatening thousands of young people in the UK. The grooming by organised criminals and, as a result, the destruction of their childhood with many going missing or being locked into a nightmare.
Her impactful writing commissions include collaborations with organisations such as Humberside Police & Crime Commissioners Office, amongst other organisations and charities. Notably, her recent work, “Trapped in County Lines,” commissioned by North Yorkshire Police and the North Yorkshire Fire & Crime Commissioners Office, reflects her dedication to educating children and young people about the signs of exploitation. Christina actively partners with various Police Forces, contributing to her transformative impact on children’s literature and safety education. Christina has visited over 400 schools delivering early intervention sessions with her work surrounding county lines.
Christina’s safeguarding stories are in the NSPCC Library and online shop raising funds for Childline. Trapped in County Lines was book of the week at the NSPCC in October 2023 and was a finalist in The People’s Book Prize
www.trappedincountylines.co.uk
http://www.christinagabbitas.com
[00:00:03] Well, welcome back to the Social World Podcast. Thoughts on the social world if you're going through Google or whatever. And it's a very great pleasure to have your company back again. It's been an up and down summer a little bit, but we're back and we're fully loaded and we're all ready to go.
[00:00:21] And I've got a friend of the podcast back again, who's got some amazing new things to tell us all about Christina Gabbitas, who's a writer and she's going to talk about all her work with child exploitation, both the work she's doing with children and the writing that she's doing to back it up. Welcome, Christina.
[00:00:44] Christina Gabbitas Good morning, David. Thank you for having me again.
[00:00:47] David Niven You're welcome. Now, I think the best bet is just give us a little taste for now and then we'll get into the meat and potatoes if you like, but give us a taste just now about what your work's involved with.
[00:01:00] Christina Gabbitas Okay, so for the past year, I've been working a lot with North Yorkshire Police and different policing teams with my stories, No More Nile County Lines and Trapting County Lines.
[00:01:13] Christina Gabbitas We're both respectively commissioned by the crime commissioners, Humberside Police and Crime Commissioner and North Yorkshire Police Fire and Crime Commissioner.
[00:01:22] Christina Gabbitas Basically, the work that we're doing with North Yorkshire Police over the past year, we've been visiting secondary schools with my story, Trapting County Lines, that sees the characters once again groomed and exploited into county lines.
[00:01:39] Christina Gabbitas So basically, the idea is we're going to get them to understand all that encompasses county lines.
[00:01:47] Christina Gabbitas So with the debt bondage, the cuckooing, all that's associated with it and the terminology, getting children and young people to understand all that encompasses it, what it means.
[00:02:00] Christina Gabbitas So we're doing a lot of visits into schools and the work itself is very impactful.
[00:02:08] Christina Gabbitas I think I'm a big believer in the power of storytelling for getting these messages across.
[00:02:13] Christina Gabbitas I think children and adults alike are more likely to remember things, it makes it more memorable.
[00:02:19] Christina Gabbitas Well, you've proved that that's a very powerful medium is the books that you've written or the graphic novels as it were.
[00:02:24] But listen, just a couple of things first.
[00:02:26] In case somebody listening doesn't understand, could you just quickly explain cuckooing to them?
[00:02:33] Christina Gabbitas So cuckooing is when someone's house is taken over.
[00:02:36] So basically, in the story Trapting County Lines, the house is taken over and that's where they deal all the drugs from.
[00:02:44] So basically, the house gets taken over and they start to distribute drugs from that house and they take the house over.
[00:02:50] In the Trapting County Lines story, Luke's house is taken over and quite innocently from his point of view.
[00:02:59] And then he gets into the debt bondage as well and goes missing at the end.
[00:03:05] So yeah.
[00:03:06] All right.
[00:03:06] Well, that's good.
[00:03:07] Thanks.
[00:03:07] I just thought in case people didn't understand the word or the context of that just now.
[00:03:11] So tell us a little bit about then your work with the schools and, you know, what a normal visit to a school under this situation would involve.
[00:03:21] Okay.
[00:03:21] Well, within secondary schools, obviously, there's a, you know, there's a large number of pupils.
[00:03:25] So we do engage with a year group at a time.
[00:03:29] It's different in primaries, which is better because we can go into the classrooms and spend time with year sixes.
[00:03:35] But so we staged kind of an assembly.
[00:03:39] I introduced myself and we introduced ourselves working together, the different policing team.
[00:03:45] And they're working together to educate them on the topic and what to look out for.
[00:03:51] So they're shown the animation.
[00:03:53] I give them a background to my writing, my career.
[00:03:56] And then we show them the animation, which, and then we have conversations about it after we open up conversations, lots and lots of questions to get them to understand, you know, what it means when someone's grooming.
[00:04:09] Those that are actually in some schools could be involved and encouraging them to speak up and to let them know who they can actually turn to.
[00:04:19] And we know that it's happening.
[00:04:20] So we have helped to safeguard some young people in schools.
[00:04:26] You've been in more than 400 schools, haven't you?
[00:04:28] Oh, gosh.
[00:04:29] I mean, in North Yorkshire alone, we've got to, we visited over 30,000 students we've got to in the past year.
[00:04:37] So I think whilst we're not going to be able to help everybody, I think getting that message out there.
[00:04:42] The idea is to get the message out to young people, teachers and all in our communities is getting everybody to understand that this is happening.
[00:04:51] Not to brush it under the carpet, talk about it, get it out there because it's happening in every area and it can happen to any child.
[00:05:00] And I hear so many horrific stories that I'm really passionate about.
[00:05:04] I mean, my children are 25 and 26 now.
[00:05:07] I feel fortunate that they're not at school.
[00:05:10] But it's really important to educate.
[00:05:13] So, yeah.
[00:05:13] So basically, when we go in there, we get them to understand that this is reality.
[00:05:18] The thing is, with secondary schools, I can be more, I can be kind of brutally honest.
[00:05:21] Look, this does happen.
[00:05:22] This is happening.
[00:05:24] You've got to be age appropriate in order to get the message out.
[00:05:27] Oh, gosh, yeah.
[00:05:27] Very age appropriate.
[00:05:28] But it's evident that it's needed because in one particular school, this was a year nine.
[00:05:33] And year nine said to me, and this is on my TikTok.
[00:05:36] What age would year nine be just for anybody abroad not listening?
[00:05:40] Year nine.
[00:05:41] Oh, gosh.
[00:05:42] 12.
[00:05:43] 12 or 13.
[00:05:44] Yeah, 12, 13.
[00:05:45] 13.
[00:05:47] So basically, I interviewed them.
[00:05:50] And if you go over to my TikTok channel, you'll be able to see all these conversations.
[00:05:54] Same to teachers and children about the topic.
[00:05:57] And one girl said to me, she said, before you came in today, all I knew was to not take drugs.
[00:06:03] So she had no education about what was going on.
[00:06:07] And that makes them vulnerable.
[00:06:08] And then another young girl said that she didn't realize that once they delivered the drugs, they would get trapped and caught up as they did and how they must be feeling.
[00:06:20] So it's hugely evident that this intervention is needed in schools.
[00:06:24] We've got a captive audience there and not enough is being done.
[00:06:28] So that makes them quite vulnerable to my mind.
[00:06:32] And the area that they're in, it's happening in every area.
[00:06:35] So given the exploitation of children up and down the country that we all know about and that your work highlights as well, I mean, it's not surprising the massive scale of this.
[00:06:48] And I was just wondering, do you ever get much from the police in terms of feedback, in terms of data, in terms of your impact?
[00:06:56] Oh, gosh, yeah.
[00:06:57] I mean, I think working together, we're trying to measure that impact together as well.
[00:07:02] But, yeah, I think working together is really important because the police do an amazing job and they're there to uphold the law and they do an amazing job.
[00:07:12] But they need our help as well and communities.
[00:07:14] We all need to work together to help tackle this.
[00:07:19] Yeah, through the, through, yeah, have some statistics in reduction in certain areas.
[00:07:25] But also with, with the children and young people themselves is, is the writing element is getting them to, because it is a story and the watching the animation.
[00:07:36] They do that for reasons.
[00:07:37] So the story is written in graphic comic strip style to engage any reader.
[00:07:42] And, you know, so those who may struggle with it with attention or not, not prolific readers, but also having it in the animation format, you're getting to everybody.
[00:07:51] And so the animations are cut down to about, you know, kind of 12 to 15 minutes.
[00:07:57] And we have a window of concentration, not just for young people, but for the general population, you know, for getting, grabbing attention.
[00:08:06] And it's a, it's a creative and an effective way of getting, and getting them to understand, again, what the cuckooing is and the debt bondage.
[00:08:15] So again, within the story, Luke, he's 13 years old.
[00:08:19] He's, he's taken the bait from some, some vapes and he's agreed to deliver these vapes.
[00:08:26] And then they get him to agree to deliver some, some cannabis and then, you know, harder drugs.
[00:08:32] And then what he ends up agreeing to is having all the drugs delivered to his home.
[00:08:38] His mum's away and he's being looked after by a 24 year old member of the family.
[00:08:44] So they then, you know, bring all the drugs into the house and take the house over.
[00:08:48] So the cuckooing side of things.
[00:08:50] And then he becomes, because if he's robbed, so he's robbed on his way to school.
[00:08:56] Obviously the organized criminals have set this up and that's what they do.
[00:09:00] They've set him up to be robbed on his way to school with a bag of cannabis.
[00:09:03] And he becomes indebted to them.
[00:09:05] He doesn't, he doesn't know this is a setup.
[00:09:07] He thinks that he's, somebody has genuinely robbed him.
[00:09:09] And now he owes that money to the, to the criminals.
[00:09:13] And so he thinks he's in debt.
[00:09:14] And so again, at the end of the story,
[00:09:17] he goes missing because he does not know what to do with himself.
[00:09:20] Let's pause that just slightly there,
[00:09:22] because I know you've got another book in the making that will begin to develop Luke's story.
[00:09:27] Is that right?
[00:09:28] It's, it's in the offing.
[00:09:30] Yeah.
[00:09:30] So then there's a,
[00:09:31] there will be another sequel coming and that will be entitled missing.
[00:09:35] This is a missing story.
[00:09:36] Children are going missing every day.
[00:09:39] And some reason,
[00:09:40] sometimes the reason is because of,
[00:09:42] because of the debt bondage,
[00:09:43] because of getting embroiled in the county lines.
[00:09:46] It's brilliant that you're doing this.
[00:09:48] I think it's brilliant that you're doing this.
[00:09:50] Can I just,
[00:09:51] before you go on and before we talk about,
[00:09:52] there's a few things I want to ask you,
[00:09:54] but do you feel that there's ever like a bonus,
[00:09:59] if you like,
[00:09:59] because it's not just the children,
[00:10:01] the staff at schools must listen to you obviously as well.
[00:10:05] And do you think that them being more aware of,
[00:10:08] of things will help in future in terms of when youngsters want to talk about stuff,
[00:10:14] that there are now more informed staff in schools that are able to be that listening ear?
[00:10:20] Yeah,
[00:10:21] most definitely.
[00:10:22] Most definitely.
[00:10:23] I know that I've been into some schools where we're helping the teachers,
[00:10:27] we're helping to educate the teachers.
[00:10:29] The teachers do an amazing job.
[00:10:31] They've got so many hats to wear.
[00:10:32] So it's difficult for them to know and talk about every topic.
[00:10:36] So I think us going into the schools,
[00:10:39] educating children,
[00:10:40] we're educating the teachers,
[00:10:41] we're helping the teachers as well.
[00:10:42] So it helps them when we've left,
[00:10:44] those conversations are then opened up.
[00:10:47] And so,
[00:10:48] yes,
[00:10:48] it hugely helps.
[00:10:49] And also the policing team that I'm with,
[00:10:52] more recently,
[00:10:53] North Yorkshire police,
[00:10:54] is that when they get,
[00:10:56] so they regularly visit the schools.
[00:10:57] That's why it's really,
[00:10:58] I think it's paramount that all schools have a link to the policing team,
[00:11:04] a school liaison team,
[00:11:06] neighbouring policing teams.
[00:11:07] It really is paramount.
[00:11:10] And I think that more is needed to be done in that area,
[00:11:13] because I know not all areas have that as one.
[00:11:16] In a different area said to me,
[00:11:19] you know,
[00:11:19] they don't have a luxury of a school liaison team.
[00:11:22] Well,
[00:11:22] to my mind,
[00:11:23] it's not a luxury.
[00:11:23] It's an absolute necessity.
[00:11:26] And that's,
[00:11:27] that's money well spent to my mind.
[00:11:28] And one thing I have realised is that as a member of the public going in and working with the police,
[00:11:35] I've realised how hard they do work and how much work they are doing and how much care is taken into,
[00:11:42] into the projects,
[00:11:44] like just working together.
[00:11:46] And I think they do an amazing job.
[00:11:49] And,
[00:11:49] you know,
[00:11:50] to my mind,
[00:11:51] you know,
[00:11:52] fantastic.
[00:11:53] So I think that the more that we can do to work together,
[00:11:55] to get this message across,
[00:11:58] the better.
[00:11:59] Because again,
[00:12:00] because I hate,
[00:12:01] I get calls from all over,
[00:12:04] from all over the UK,
[00:12:05] about children being caught up and organised crime groups taken over,
[00:12:11] old cheap council properties,
[00:12:13] twos as drug dens,
[00:12:15] kids being set on fire,
[00:12:17] you know,
[00:12:18] the whole shebang.
[00:12:18] I know,
[00:12:19] I know,
[00:12:19] I know.
[00:12:20] And I know that you're being very inventive too,
[00:12:22] because the obvious thing is you can't clone yourself.
[00:12:25] So you can't be,
[00:12:26] you know,
[00:12:27] go to everything that you're asked to do or get involved with every police force that you may well wish to be.
[00:12:34] But you're,
[00:12:34] you're being very inventive as well,
[00:12:36] if I might say,
[00:12:37] because I know,
[00:12:38] let's take something else that I know you've been heavily,
[00:12:40] involved with over the years.
[00:12:41] And that's children's literature festivals and poetry.
[00:12:45] And you decided to combine the two,
[00:12:48] didn't you?
[00:12:49] Well,
[00:12:50] basically with obviously children's literature festivals is a,
[00:12:52] is a small charity that I founded.
[00:12:55] I have three other trustees.
[00:12:56] That's just,
[00:12:57] and we concentrate on areas of deprivation and it's predominantly aimed at primary,
[00:13:01] but I'm bringing more secondary into that.
[00:13:04] So going back to the writing and the poetry.
[00:13:07] So because I hear so many horrific stories,
[00:13:11] I decided there's not enough education out there.
[00:13:14] So I set up a national initiative and this was born out of,
[00:13:17] I visited a school in Harrogate,
[00:13:19] Rosset High with North Yorkshire police.
[00:13:20] And as a result of us going into that school together,
[00:13:24] one of the students wrote a poem called blades of silence and sent it to North
[00:13:28] Yorkshire police.
[00:13:29] Who then in turn sent it to me saying,
[00:13:31] Oh,
[00:13:31] are there any competition we can enter this poem into?
[00:13:34] Cause it's brilliant.
[00:13:34] Yeah.
[00:13:35] And I said,
[00:13:36] well,
[00:13:36] I can't think of any big,
[00:13:37] but over the years I've held initiatives and I could probably set one up.
[00:13:42] So I did.
[00:13:43] So I set about it.
[00:13:44] I did this voluntarily on,
[00:13:45] I put an extra page onto attracting County lines website.
[00:13:49] So I set about getting young people aged 12 to 21 to write about all that.
[00:13:57] I,
[00:13:57] is it encompasses County lines to get them to,
[00:13:59] and I did this to try and educate because I was realizing that they're not educated
[00:14:04] enough,
[00:14:04] but also for those who are perhaps caught up in it,
[00:14:08] give them an opportunity to write as well.
[00:14:10] And I have to say it's the most successful initiative writing initiative I've ever
[00:14:14] organized.
[00:14:15] And I've organized quite a few.
[00:14:17] We had hundreds of entries,
[00:14:18] didn't you?
[00:14:19] Oh yeah.
[00:14:20] From all over the UK.
[00:14:21] And what,
[00:14:21] what was really brilliant is that catch 22 charity took it on board really well.
[00:14:27] And they worked as mentors for some of the applications that came in.
[00:14:32] So everybody that sent in a poem,
[00:14:34] had to have a mentor or a teacher for the submission or otherwise I wouldn't accept
[00:14:40] it because if,
[00:14:42] if,
[00:14:42] if,
[00:14:43] if a child or young person sent me a poem and I didn't know where they were,
[00:14:45] there was,
[00:14:46] there'd be no,
[00:14:46] no way of safeguarding them if there was a problem.
[00:14:48] So they all had to have a mentor,
[00:14:50] but I can just say that there's going to be between 50 and 60 of the best poems and songs.
[00:14:56] So there's lyrics as well.
[00:14:58] And there were some brilliant submissions from catch 22.
[00:15:01] And,
[00:15:01] um,
[00:15:02] I'm really looking forward to sharing those poems of lived experience as well.
[00:15:07] I think that's really important.
[00:15:09] Um,
[00:15:09] I think one of the poems starts,
[00:15:10] you know,
[00:15:11] you get up in the morning,
[00:15:12] there's nothing in the fridge.
[00:15:14] Everybody should read this book.
[00:15:16] So this poetry book that will be.
[00:15:18] Yeah.
[00:15:19] When's it coming out?
[00:15:20] It's going to be coming out on UNESCO's world poetry day,
[00:15:23] which is the 21st of March,
[00:15:24] 2025.
[00:15:26] Right.
[00:15:26] So it's going to be out and available then.
[00:15:28] So all of the,
[00:15:29] um,
[00:15:30] um,
[00:15:31] published authors within that will get a free copy.
[00:15:34] And then there will be any sales from,
[00:15:37] excuse me,
[00:15:40] any sales from any further copies.
[00:15:42] When,
[00:15:43] uh,
[00:15:43] the proceeds,
[00:15:44] any proceeds after costs will be given to NSPCC child line.
[00:15:48] Cause you're on the NSPCC council,
[00:15:51] aren't you?
[00:15:51] Yeah.
[00:15:52] I'm a member of the council.
[00:15:53] They're very supportive of the work.
[00:15:54] And,
[00:15:54] um,
[00:15:55] Tracy Hallsworth,
[00:15:56] the,
[00:15:56] um,
[00:15:57] chief social worker is very supportive of the,
[00:15:59] uh,
[00:15:59] the initiative around because I'm a big believer in giving children a voice.
[00:16:03] And that's what it's all about.
[00:16:04] We need to listen.
[00:16:05] So the book is called listen up.
[00:16:08] And,
[00:16:08] uh,
[00:16:09] that was inspired by another one of the songs that that's been written in there
[00:16:14] by a young lady called Baber Stokes from Millfork school in York.
[00:16:18] Um,
[00:16:19] so,
[00:16:19] yeah,
[00:16:19] so the,
[00:16:20] it's been illustrated by 22 year old Alicia Abbott,
[00:16:23] who's from Hull,
[00:16:24] who's now studying in at the,
[00:16:26] um,
[00:16:27] London university of arts.
[00:16:29] Um,
[00:16:29] she's in a third year.
[00:16:30] So she's actually designed the front cover.
[00:16:33] All my work is,
[00:16:34] I do lots of research.
[00:16:36] I collaborate with young people.
[00:16:38] All the voices on the animations for the stories are,
[00:16:41] um,
[00:16:42] voiced by young people.
[00:16:44] Um,
[00:16:45] so yeah,
[00:16:45] so I,
[00:16:46] I'm a big believer in giving children a voice and that's what it's all about.
[00:16:50] And this book is going to be absolutely amazing.
[00:16:53] I think everybody should read it.
[00:16:54] It will be available across,
[00:16:57] uh,
[00:16:57] bookstores once it's published.
[00:16:59] Um,
[00:16:59] I'll tell you what then,
[00:17:01] I mean,
[00:17:02] let's put a marker down and if,
[00:17:03] if it's all right with you around and about launch time,
[00:17:07] um,
[00:17:08] let's pop another podcast out with all the details and some of the examples on it.
[00:17:12] How about that?
[00:17:13] Yeah.
[00:17:14] Yeah.
[00:17:14] That sounds amazing.
[00:17:15] Thank you.
[00:17:19] I mean,
[00:17:19] and I think people should realize that you're not exactly raking money in yourself from this.
[00:17:25] It's all quite,
[00:17:26] um,
[00:17:29] well,
[00:17:29] well,
[00:17:30] voluntary in the main,
[00:17:30] you just get any expenses you have to cover is what I understand.
[00:17:33] Is that right?
[00:17:34] It is from,
[00:17:35] from the book.
[00:17:36] Yeah.
[00:17:36] Obviously when I go into schools with,
[00:17:38] with the policing teams,
[00:17:39] I have to be paid because I have to earn money.
[00:17:41] Um,
[00:17:42] so yeah,
[00:17:42] so I do get paid for going into schools,
[00:17:44] but the book is,
[00:17:46] it's a labor of love really.
[00:17:47] It's,
[00:17:47] I feel so passionate about it.
[00:17:49] But I'm also the YMC in Lincolnshire,
[00:17:52] I put something towards the book and I'm still looking for sponsorship for that as well.
[00:17:57] From any other organizations.
[00:17:59] I'm talking to a few different people at the moment.
[00:18:01] It's just for the raw cost of the printing.
[00:18:03] Um,
[00:18:04] I've,
[00:18:05] I've,
[00:18:05] I've dedicated my time to it.
[00:18:06] So I just wanted to tell you about another,
[00:18:09] um,
[00:18:09] campaign that I've just started.
[00:18:11] Come on.
[00:18:13] You're really so full of,
[00:18:14] you're full of campaigns.
[00:18:15] I don't know what you,
[00:18:16] when you find the time,
[00:18:17] but please go on.
[00:18:19] there's so much more to be done to help educate on this topic and get this message out.
[00:18:24] So,
[00:18:25] um,
[00:18:27] so from last week,
[00:18:28] um,
[00:18:29] I was working,
[00:18:30] I've worked with a company called Averter who,
[00:18:32] um,
[00:18:33] put visuals onto buses.
[00:18:36] So basically I've got,
[00:18:38] um,
[00:18:39] a strap line on a school bus,
[00:18:41] um,
[00:18:43] you know,
[00:18:43] with both of the book jackets,
[00:18:45] um,
[00:18:46] and book your auto visit.
[00:18:48] So that's going to be on that bus for a whole year.
[00:18:51] That bus is going to be traveling through different villages and towns.
[00:18:55] Uh,
[00:18:56] so there's an article that came up,
[00:18:57] uh,
[00:18:57] yesterday,
[00:18:58] the national police chief's council about county lines and that they're becoming more localized.
[00:19:04] Uh,
[00:19:05] there were fewer running outside boundaries and fewer children recorded by polices involved,
[00:19:09] um,
[00:19:10] in,
[00:19:10] in,
[00:19:11] in,
[00:19:11] in any capacity.
[00:19:12] Um,
[00:19:14] however,
[00:19:14] children are still massively at risk.
[00:19:17] So this fits well with that because this bus is going to visit,
[00:19:22] is going to go from York to Borough Bridge to,
[00:19:24] um,
[00:19:26] pop Clinton,
[00:19:27] all the different schools in sort of about 25 different locations.
[00:19:31] So this bus is going to be traveling on the roads.
[00:19:33] I think people don't,
[00:19:34] you know,
[00:19:35] more people are going to see something on a bus than they are on the TV or radio.
[00:19:40] So now that sounds a great visual driving about.
[00:19:44] So this is to help get this message out.
[00:19:46] I said to the company out into the communities,
[00:19:49] I want to raise awareness of the county lines,
[00:19:51] exploitation and all that surrounds it and associated knife crime.
[00:19:55] Um,
[00:19:56] so that's going to be on that bus for a whole year.
[00:19:59] So 12 months,
[00:20:00] it's going to be driving about people are going to see it and they're going to wonder,
[00:20:03] Oh,
[00:20:03] what's that?
[00:20:04] And they'll start to think,
[00:20:04] well,
[00:20:05] what's that all about?
[00:20:05] And then look into it a little bit more.
[00:20:07] I think it just compliments the work that I've been doing with North Yorkshire police to,
[00:20:13] you know,
[00:20:13] to tackle,
[00:20:14] to tackle this problem is it,
[00:20:16] it is,
[00:20:16] it is awful.
[00:20:18] And I think,
[00:20:19] I don't think communities realize to the extent that it's happening.
[00:20:24] And I think if we can get the more that we can do to get it out into the public domain,
[00:20:29] to get people to realize the more that they can look out for kids and the more that children can be warned against it.
[00:20:36] Um,
[00:20:36] and to,
[00:20:37] to help them actually being groomed and exploited.
[00:20:40] I know I spoke to one County line's mum,
[00:20:44] whose son,
[00:20:46] excuse me,
[00:20:48] whose son was groomed and exploited.
[00:20:50] Now,
[00:20:51] even he said,
[00:20:52] if he'd have had some intervention in school,
[00:20:54] he may not have been groomed.
[00:20:55] He may not be in the place he is now.
[00:20:58] And she's been a base,
[00:20:59] but both of them have been a big supporter of my work.
[00:21:01] Obviously he's to remain anonymous.
[00:21:03] Um,
[00:21:05] and,
[00:21:05] but she has spoken out in support of,
[00:21:08] of the project and thinks it's really,
[00:21:10] really quite necessary.
[00:21:11] Um,
[00:21:12] can I just,
[00:21:13] can I just ask you to pause at that point and just develop that point slightly before,
[00:21:17] before I forget,
[00:21:18] because I was wondering about,
[00:21:20] um,
[00:21:21] support for families of children who've been involved in this or who are discovering that their child is involved in this.
[00:21:30] Um,
[00:21:31] how to,
[00:21:32] how to deal,
[00:21:33] how to best deal with their child,
[00:21:35] how to best support them,
[00:21:37] how to best go along with authorities or whoever,
[00:21:41] and actually kind of,
[00:21:43] if you like,
[00:21:44] making the problem sort of much,
[00:21:47] much more manageable with the child.
[00:21:49] I mean,
[00:21:50] are there,
[00:21:50] are there projects you're aware of to do with the families of these children?
[00:21:55] Well,
[00:21:56] I think that's,
[00:21:56] that's not some,
[00:21:57] that's not my remake.
[00:21:58] That's not something I'm involved in.
[00:22:00] I just wondered if you were involved.
[00:22:01] Yeah,
[00:22:01] there are,
[00:22:02] there are organizations.
[00:22:03] Um,
[00:22:04] I know North Yorkshire police are working with St.
[00:22:06] Giles Trust a lot.
[00:22:07] Um,
[00:22:08] so there are organizations in each of those areas,
[00:22:11] areas, uh,
[00:22:12] that have been set up and that is being worked on as well.
[00:22:15] So,
[00:22:16] uh,
[00:22:17] I know that that,
[00:22:18] that support is there and that support is,
[00:22:20] is,
[00:22:20] is to be improved.
[00:22:21] And I think he's being looked at as,
[00:22:23] as we speak.
[00:22:24] That's good.
[00:22:25] I just wonder,
[00:22:26] because anybody sees the bus,
[00:22:27] obviously,
[00:22:28] if a child sees your adverts on the bus and things like that,
[00:22:31] that's a good thing.
[00:22:32] But also if adults or families see it,
[00:22:35] see it.
[00:22:35] And if family members hear that the child's had this discussion at school,
[00:22:40] or this presentation from yourself and the police at school,
[00:22:43] you know,
[00:22:44] they might well be asking,
[00:22:45] well,
[00:22:45] okay,
[00:22:46] but how can we get involved?
[00:22:47] So yeah,
[00:22:49] the,
[00:22:49] the,
[00:22:50] the policing teams are there to,
[00:22:51] to be hurt,
[00:22:53] you know,
[00:22:54] like the school.
[00:22:56] So you've got a lot of the schools as most schools have a brilliant pastoral
[00:23:00] care.
[00:23:01] So there's the,
[00:23:02] they're related to the,
[00:23:03] to the,
[00:23:03] to that team,
[00:23:04] the safeguarding teams within the schools,
[00:23:06] they're there.
[00:23:07] Um,
[00:23:07] they weren't there when I was younger and,
[00:23:09] and,
[00:23:10] you know,
[00:23:10] the,
[00:23:10] the connection with this,
[00:23:12] uh,
[00:23:12] the school's liaisons teams or the neighbor policing teams with the
[00:23:15] school,
[00:23:15] they're all there to chat to about it.
[00:23:17] If anybody wants to know any more,
[00:23:19] anybody wants to email me,
[00:23:21] I'm happy to chat to people.
[00:23:22] I do anyway.
[00:23:23] Um,
[00:23:24] but yeah,
[00:23:24] that,
[00:23:24] that support is there from,
[00:23:26] from an education point of view,
[00:23:27] most definitely,
[00:23:28] most definitely if they're concerned about anything.
[00:23:30] Well,
[00:23:30] the link to your website is going to be with all the other links and
[00:23:34] information on the front page of this podcast that,
[00:23:37] you know,
[00:23:38] people can see when they access it.
[00:23:40] So,
[00:23:41] I mean,
[00:23:41] I think that's something to remind people that,
[00:23:43] and,
[00:23:43] and if there's anything else,
[00:23:45] Christina,
[00:23:45] that you,
[00:23:47] want to draw people's attention to in the meantime,
[00:23:49] you know,
[00:23:50] we'll try and put it on that front page so that there's a,
[00:23:52] there's a definite link available for people.
[00:23:55] Um,
[00:23:56] but let,
[00:23:56] let me just ask you one thing that just occurred to me when you were
[00:24:00] younger,
[00:24:02] um,
[00:24:02] this didn't really occur to you,
[00:24:05] uh,
[00:24:06] as a,
[00:24:06] as a,
[00:24:06] as work,
[00:24:07] as a way of life,
[00:24:08] as a,
[00:24:08] as a calling,
[00:24:09] as a whatever.
[00:24:11] Um,
[00:24:11] you know,
[00:24:12] it's interesting how people get into things,
[00:24:14] isn't it?
[00:24:15] Because it was,
[00:24:16] if I remember meeting with you and we've known each other for years,
[00:24:20] it was something that sort of gradually impacted on your life,
[00:24:24] wasn't it?
[00:24:28] Yeah,
[00:24:28] I think the approach in 2019,
[00:24:31] uh,
[00:24:32] came from Humberside police and crime commissioner's office,
[00:24:35] because that came off the back of a story that I'd written called
[00:24:38] Shares and Secrets that encourages children to speak up about abuse,
[00:24:43] um,
[00:24:43] which is aimed at primary age children.
[00:24:45] That is one of the best selling titles of the NSPCC online shop.
[00:24:49] And I donate some proceeds to child line.
[00:24:52] So that's where the,
[00:24:53] the,
[00:24:53] the,
[00:24:54] the ask came from.
[00:24:55] Um,
[00:24:56] and when I'm not really a,
[00:24:57] you know,
[00:24:58] a Harry Potter person,
[00:24:59] I,
[00:24:59] when I was at school right from primary,
[00:25:01] I always wanted to know what was going on in the world of factual
[00:25:04] information so that I'm,
[00:25:06] um,
[00:25:06] more aligned to,
[00:25:07] to,
[00:25:08] you know,
[00:25:08] to,
[00:25:09] to write that way as well.
[00:25:10] Um,
[00:25:11] what I will say,
[00:25:11] and I will add,
[00:25:12] and I forgot to add earlier is that both the no more knives or counter lines
[00:25:16] and trapped in counter lines.
[00:25:17] And now in the NSPCC online shop,
[00:25:19] I've donated 200,
[00:25:21] the first 200 copies,
[00:25:23] um,
[00:25:24] all the proceeds are going to NSPCC child line.
[00:25:27] So they're,
[00:25:28] they've just been actually uploaded this past,
[00:25:31] uh,
[00:25:31] past couple of weeks,
[00:25:32] uh,
[00:25:33] to say that that's where there can be,
[00:25:35] uh,
[00:25:35] that's where they're available to buy.
[00:25:37] Uh,
[00:25:37] but also the animations are available on freely available online to watch for both
[00:25:42] stories.
[00:25:43] Look out for the missing story coming,
[00:25:46] uh,
[00:25:46] sometime.
[00:25:47] I mean,
[00:25:47] the next year or so.
[00:25:48] Yeah.
[00:25:49] Yeah.
[00:25:50] The other side of it is that the NSPCC,
[00:25:52] the link to them,
[00:25:53] I hope is on our,
[00:25:55] going to be on the front page and,
[00:25:57] um,
[00:25:58] the link to your own website is going to be on the front page too,
[00:26:01] isn't it?
[00:26:02] Yeah.
[00:26:02] Well,
[00:26:02] that's,
[00:26:02] that's,
[00:26:03] that's there too.
[00:26:04] But people,
[00:26:04] I think with these stories,
[00:26:06] with the safeguarding stories,
[00:26:08] I think the NSPCC is the go-to place because,
[00:26:12] you know,
[00:26:12] it's been validated by them.
[00:26:14] Uh,
[00:26:15] they're,
[00:26:15] they're a believer in what,
[00:26:16] what is written.
[00:26:17] They're a believer in my work.
[00:26:19] So a lot of teachers,
[00:26:21] educationalists will go to their site.
[00:26:22] So I think it's the,
[00:26:23] you know,
[00:26:23] it's the best place for them to be.
[00:26:25] Yes.
[00:26:25] I do have my own website,
[00:26:27] but people to the best well in world.
[00:26:28] People tend to go to Amazon and the like,
[00:26:30] but go to the NSPCC site,
[00:26:32] anybody for these,
[00:26:33] for these books,
[00:26:33] because it helps them to raise funds for a much,
[00:26:37] uh,
[00:26:37] much needed cause.
[00:26:38] Oh,
[00:26:39] the other thing is I'm doing my fourth marathon for child line in April.
[00:26:44] Well,
[00:26:45] that's a good thing.
[00:26:46] That's a good thing.
[00:26:47] And the bonuses and presumably keeps you fit too.
[00:26:51] Um,
[00:26:51] yes,
[00:26:52] yes,
[00:26:52] it does.
[00:26:53] All right.
[00:26:53] Well,
[00:26:54] look,
[00:26:54] let me ask you a question.
[00:26:56] When you were at school,
[00:26:58] okay.
[00:26:58] Did you ever imagine,
[00:27:01] ever imagine in your wildest dreams that you would need something like Venn diagrams in your life?
[00:27:09] If you ever remember that,
[00:27:11] because that's what's coming to my mind,
[00:27:14] because I've got,
[00:27:14] as you know,
[00:27:15] on the podcast that I specialize in,
[00:27:17] we specialize in safeguarding issues and talk to people all around the world.
[00:27:21] Um,
[00:27:22] and some of the things we've been doing recently and people who follow my podcast will know that
[00:27:27] what to do with human trafficking and modern day slavery,
[00:27:30] et cetera.
[00:27:31] And there is quite an overlap between what you're doing and that.
[00:27:37] And I,
[00:27:38] you know,
[00:27:38] I mean,
[00:27:39] it's just,
[00:27:39] it's irrefutable that there are children who go missing,
[00:27:43] as you said,
[00:27:44] some for the debt issues,
[00:27:46] the blackmail issues and so forth,
[00:27:48] but others literally because they're kidnapped or they're,
[00:27:52] they're taken away and they're sold or they're whatever.
[00:27:56] I mean,
[00:27:56] and that happens in Britain too,
[00:27:58] quite a lot.
[00:27:59] And people just are beginning to wake up more and more to this.
[00:28:02] And some of the anti-slavery charities,
[00:28:05] the big one in the UK is called unseen.
[00:28:09] And,
[00:28:09] um,
[00:28:10] I've been reviewing a couple of,
[00:28:12] of their book authors on,
[00:28:14] on this.
[00:28:15] And another one will be going out soon,
[00:28:17] but I just wondered if you come across much of that overlap,
[00:28:21] or you're just so busy with your own particular.
[00:28:24] No,
[00:28:25] there's,
[00:28:25] you know,
[00:28:25] there is,
[00:28:26] there is an overlap.
[00:28:26] It's modern slavery.
[00:28:28] It's modern day slavery,
[00:28:29] isn't it?
[00:28:29] The county lines model,
[00:28:30] um,
[00:28:32] you know,
[00:28:33] you know,
[00:28:33] the,
[00:28:33] the sexual exploitation as well.
[00:28:35] There definitely is a,
[00:28:37] it is a crossover because the,
[00:28:39] you know,
[00:28:39] the kid not to do the,
[00:28:40] the,
[00:28:41] the very operation that we're talking about.
[00:28:42] So there,
[00:28:43] there is an overlap and it would be good to speak to other charities.
[00:28:46] Obviously,
[00:28:47] uh,
[00:28:47] doing my research,
[00:28:48] which I will be speaking to,
[00:28:49] to missing people and any other charity that,
[00:28:51] that was willing to help,
[00:28:53] um,
[00:28:53] with,
[00:28:54] with my research.
[00:28:55] But I have got,
[00:28:56] um,
[00:28:57] you know,
[00:28:57] quite,
[00:28:58] quite,
[00:28:58] um,
[00:28:59] a poignant story to tell.
[00:29:00] But yeah,
[00:29:01] no,
[00:29:01] as a,
[00:29:02] as a child at school,
[00:29:03] I never thought I'd be writing at all.
[00:29:05] I was very quiet and shy.
[00:29:06] I was like a mute at school.
[00:29:07] I was a bit of a misfit really,
[00:29:09] um,
[00:29:10] right.
[00:29:11] And right up until leaving secondary school.
[00:29:14] So,
[00:29:14] um,
[00:29:15] I always say that to children when I go in as well,
[00:29:17] you know,
[00:29:17] there's,
[00:29:18] there's lots of opportunities out there and you never know where those might
[00:29:20] take.
[00:29:21] You try lots of different things.
[00:29:23] Uh,
[00:29:24] but yeah,
[00:29:24] it's good.
[00:29:24] It's very,
[00:29:25] very good for an empathetic response to,
[00:29:28] to some pupils that will be feeling exactly as you did.
[00:29:31] Yeah.
[00:29:32] And I say that to them.
[00:29:33] Yes.
[00:29:33] So you may be think,
[00:29:34] you know,
[00:29:34] you,
[00:29:35] you,
[00:29:35] you are the,
[00:29:35] to the quiet and shy ones who are you scared to speak.
[00:29:38] Cause I was scared to speak.
[00:29:39] I was just so painfully shy.
[00:29:41] nobody believes me,
[00:29:42] but that's how I was.
[00:29:43] So I gave myself my own CBT to,
[00:29:45] uh,
[00:29:46] you know,
[00:29:46] get a bit more chatty.
[00:29:49] All right.
[00:29:50] Well,
[00:29:50] Luke,
[00:29:51] just finally,
[00:29:52] I think let,
[00:29:52] let's kind of give you the opportunity for a minute or two to just,
[00:29:56] if you'd like to give a message,
[00:29:58] imagine you're standing in front of the children,
[00:30:00] a group of children at the moment.
[00:30:02] I mean,
[00:30:03] what,
[00:30:03] what sort of messages do you want people to actually hear?
[00:30:07] What,
[00:30:07] what do you feel resonates most?
[00:30:08] I know it's got to be truthful.
[00:30:10] I know it's got to be believable.
[00:30:12] And I know it's got to be understandable,
[00:30:13] but at the same time,
[00:30:15] you've also got to be,
[00:30:16] um,
[00:30:17] empowering,
[00:30:18] haven't you?
[00:30:19] You've got to actually give people permission to,
[00:30:21] to dive into what is a very harrowing subject.
[00:30:25] Yeah.
[00:30:26] I think to,
[00:30:27] you know,
[00:30:27] parents,
[00:30:28] carers,
[00:30:28] people out in the communities who are going to be listening to this.
[00:30:31] I don't think that your child is safe.
[00:30:34] And I don't,
[00:30:35] I don't want to be,
[00:30:35] you sound like I'm being negative,
[00:30:37] but I think just educate as much education as you give your children,
[00:30:43] as much education about the world around them,
[00:30:45] as you possibly can.
[00:30:47] Don't ignore it.
[00:30:48] Even the online stuff.
[00:30:49] I know it's really hard to police the online stuff,
[00:30:51] but do what you can to try and protect your children,
[00:30:55] uh,
[00:30:55] from harm.
[00:30:56] And I think,
[00:30:57] um,
[00:30:58] it's really difficult because I speak to some people who have never heard of,
[00:31:02] of what's going on.
[00:31:03] County lines,
[00:31:04] the whole,
[00:31:05] you know,
[00:31:05] everything that's associated with it,
[00:31:07] the associated crime is,
[00:31:09] it speaks to them about it.
[00:31:11] Um,
[00:31:12] the more that we can empower our children,
[00:31:14] young people,
[00:31:15] uh,
[00:31:16] the better chance they have.
[00:31:18] Listen,
[00:31:19] listen,
[00:31:19] listen to children as well.
[00:31:20] Listen to children and young people,
[00:31:22] give them a voice.
[00:31:23] Don't dismiss them out of hand.
[00:31:25] And look,
[00:31:26] you know,
[00:31:27] look for signs.
[00:31:28] I always say to the children in schools,
[00:31:30] look for signs of your friends being a bit withdrawn or,
[00:31:32] uh,
[00:31:33] not being themselves.
[00:31:34] Talk to them,
[00:31:35] you know,
[00:31:36] it's just talk,
[00:31:37] keep,
[00:31:37] keep talking and listen to children,
[00:31:41] young people and give them a voice.
[00:31:43] Um,
[00:31:44] we've all been that age.
[00:31:45] It's a difficult age to be.
[00:31:47] So we need to make them feel as comfortable as possible.
[00:31:50] So yeah,
[00:31:51] give children a voice.
[00:31:54] Okay.
[00:31:54] Christina Gebertas.
[00:31:56] Thank you again for sharing things with us and,
[00:32:02] look forward to March when not only the poetry will be published,
[00:32:07] but maybe you'll have more information about,
[00:32:10] um,
[00:32:10] listen up,
[00:32:11] I believe,
[00:32:12] which is your next publication in the series.
[00:32:14] Yes.
[00:32:16] And,
[00:32:16] uh,
[00:32:16] the missing story and another project that I've got,
[00:32:19] uh,
[00:32:20] brewing in the background.
[00:32:21] Unless you'll tell more about that later.
[00:32:24] Well,
[00:32:24] look,
[00:32:25] you're very welcome.
[00:32:25] And thanks ever so much for the time today.
[00:32:28] You're welcome.
[00:32:28] Thank you.
[00:32:29] Bye-bye.
[00:32:29] Bye-bye.
[00:32:30] Bye-bye.
[00:32:30] Bye-bye.
[00:32:30] Bye-bye.
[00:32:30] Bye-bye.
