165 Larry Cameron International Human Traffiking expert

[00:00:12] Well, welcome back everybody. I'm David Niven and this is the Social World podcast. It's Thoughts On The Social

[00:00:18] World if you go to Google. I'm very pleased to have you back again and that theme is the theme of the day

[00:00:26] I have got somebody here that I interviewed two years ago. It's unbelievable that it's gone that long. Larry Cameron now

[00:00:35] Larry is somebody who is steeped in

[00:00:38] protecting the vulnerable protecting children identifying where trafficking takes place, training

[00:00:47] people and also know he's changed and I'm going to ask him how it's changed into which

[00:00:51] particular company he's formed and how that goes about things. Larry, welcome back to the program.

[00:00:59] Thank you David. Glad to be back. Okay, no. I see that you've now formed your own company.

[00:01:06] It's paradigm intelligence and you're the president and you have got quite a track record now. So

[00:01:15] I presume you're really focusing on stuff that you've always wanted to do. Could you tell us a little

[00:01:21] bit about paradigm? Yeah, so paradigm it's intelligence company we work with various law enforcement

[00:01:29] we train about 7,000 in the past three years. We spoke about 160 conferences also trainer for

[00:01:39] interpole. The internet crimes against children task forces and spoke at the United Nations.

[00:01:46] Think around four times already and worked with them on some other things.

[00:01:54] I'm joking. I'm saying what do you do any afternoons?

[00:01:58] Ah, sleep. What a wonderful, that's incredible. All right, elaborate on a bit for us.

[00:02:06] Would you and tell us what the work sort of involves as well? That's how you actually

[00:02:10] develop it and distribute it? Working day it's kind of fluctuates so

[00:02:19] I do still do pro bonal cases for some missing children over time. Few last night actually

[00:02:26] we average about four recovery per week now. Really, it's not massive but you know, it's a

[00:02:33] story. You're making things still. Yeah, yeah, so we do a normal day, the consist of different stuff

[00:02:41] like a blockchain forensics investigations. A lot of people that get hacked, a lot of people that get

[00:02:46] scanned, you know, a lot of fraud in the world there. We also do digital forensics. We do a lot of

[00:02:55] so going after different sites or entities, tracking people. We also do

[00:03:04] different like dark web intelligence if there's some stuff going on on the dark web and

[00:03:09] someone needs help targeting and they'd reach out to us. It's more of the high technical stuff.

[00:03:15] So that's why we mentioned the dark web stuff before. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

[00:03:20] Yes, why created an event called the dark webathon. We had last one we had about

[00:03:24] 160 people that got certified in blockchain forensics. Let's we had an open source intelligence

[00:03:30] and also a pig butchering lightning round. You're going to have to explain one or two things

[00:03:37] of this site of the pond for the pig butchering one. Yeah, pig butchering. It's kind of evolved from the old

[00:03:45] romance scams, investment scams, cryptocurrency scams. I do have a presentation. I'll show you

[00:03:52] there won't be public but it's very interesting. Right now the victims are also the ones scamming.

[00:04:02] So people will traffic these people labor trafficking, sex trafficking, even Oregon trafficking

[00:04:08] so that they can scam other people. So you'll see different call center type things set up

[00:04:15] but each desk will have like 20 phones, right? Yeah. So they're constantly going, making these

[00:04:22] profiles trying to scam people but they're the ones being trafficked. So there's

[00:04:28] what a kind of a twist to the situation. Yeah, they're really complicated. It's quite convoluted in

[00:04:35] some ways. So I mean these people are experiencing if you like both ends of the drama.

[00:04:42] Yeah, some of them actually, there was someone that wouldn't actually do this scamming. So they put

[00:04:47] them into these karaoke bars to be sex trafficked and then some of them that didn't want

[00:04:53] to do that, they would actually traffic their organs. There's a lot of torture. So they had

[00:04:59] cattle rods and they were zapping them and they're beating them. Their whole body was bruised.

[00:05:06] And where would they, I mean where does this all happen? How far and why do you get involved?

[00:05:12] So there was a case in Cambodia. There was about 100,000 victims there and there was I think around

[00:05:20] 100 to 120,000 victims in Myanmar. We started seeing it as close as Europe, Australia and also

[00:05:29] North America that's starting. So it's spreading out right now. Just because it's catching on the next

[00:05:35] best way to scam people. There's about $80 billion in a few years. So these people who are victims

[00:05:42] themselves, then would be kind of placed into positions where they have to they scam other people.

[00:05:49] Yes, or is it being tortured or killed? Yeah, under juris. Yeah, I get it. So can you just take it

[00:05:57] back for a moment or two, just to make it a little more kind of personal? You mentioned you

[00:06:02] about what you called recoveries. Yeah, a week. Could you just describe a recovery and what,

[00:06:11] what was into it and what happens? Would you mind? Yeah. So if you look at social media, you'll

[00:06:16] probably see all these missing children, posters or on the news or newspapers all around the place.

[00:06:24] You'll see that there's kids missing all over the world. Yeah. Well, this is what we assist with.

[00:06:29] So it could be sometimes the parents come out to us. Sometimes we just see the post,

[00:06:34] sometimes it could be law enforcement that needs help. But or we might get report from the National

[00:06:39] Center missing exploited children that's brought to us through law enforcement. So they will,

[00:06:46] you know, basically give us all the information so that we can start targeting and, you know,

[00:06:52] it could be, you know, 567 investigations a week will touch on just so that we can do our part.

[00:06:58] You know, at least four of these get recovered. I've been averaging.

[00:07:04] Which I think that sounds remarkably successful. I mean, you felt that that was only a small number.

[00:07:10] Really didn't you? Now, this is a thing. I mean, we need to do the for profit model in order

[00:07:19] to fund these nonprofit investigations. What are these really? No, they have a stressful

[00:07:27] big and nonprofit where you had to fundraise your own salary. Yeah, yeah. Okay. What age is

[00:07:35] of people we go? Take your time away from the actual mission at hand. You've got right.

[00:07:41] Are there young people, mainly the children obviously are children? Sorry, go ahead.

[00:07:52] Yeah, can you repeat that? I'm saying I was wondering what age is of people. You just cut out.

[00:07:57] Oh, did I? Sorry. I wonder well. Let me stop at a sec.

[00:08:02] Oh, okay. Okay. What ageies of people are you managing to recover? What ageies do you tend to kind

[00:08:10] of come across mainly? Is it all children or is it mainly other vulnerable adults? Is it?

[00:08:18] There are some vulnerable adults. But again, time is of the essence. We don't have a lot of

[00:08:25] time. We need more staff to be able to do this more often. But generally from eight years old

[00:08:32] to about, well, could be 17 18, you know, even though they're 18, we still also look for those

[00:08:40] or some of them are like, you know, up to 40 or more. But generally I find they're around

[00:08:46] least 12 to 14 15. Those are the main ages we come across. Right. Do you've got you mentioned

[00:08:54] to me that you're building this company of yours? Obviously using the massive networking that

[00:09:00] you've accumulated over the years that you've been involved in this business. You've got some

[00:09:05] interns at the moment and you do a lot of training, I believe, is that right?

[00:09:11] Yeah. So what my, when we first engagedments was with the work Liberty or Fort Bragg,

[00:09:20] they do the special operations and one of the, I think it was the first special

[00:09:23] operations, basically, they actually have two Starbucks. But I went there and I trained the

[00:09:30] Cyops, this psychological operations and various forms of blockchain for NSW or up in source

[00:09:37] intelligence or blockchain for NSW. So I say that, there are 11 colleges as well. Those are the

[00:09:43] main topics that I train on the cyber aspect. All right. I think it's good at this point. I should

[00:09:49] mention that at the end of the podcast on the front page, the texts of the front page of this

[00:09:55] podcast, I will ask you to give me as much as you like in terms of linkage or in terms of places

[00:10:02] that people can go and link in to see some of your work or to see ideas that are happening events

[00:10:07] that are coming up. Anything you want, I will put on as a link at the end of the conversation. Okay?

[00:10:14] I appreciate that, David. All right. So let's get into it a little bit then.

[00:10:19] I mean, I would think that if you come across all these traumatized situations day after day after

[00:10:26] day, you've got to be incredibly resilient yourself. I mean, there must must take quite a

[00:10:33] tool on yourself, all of this and the people you work with. Yeah, I find I carry it well.

[00:10:43] You know, it's years and years of trauma and you kind of get used to it. But I just

[00:10:50] started actually getting therapy from a just donate by the National Child Protection Task Force.

[00:10:57] Right. Okay. You know, some of my coworkers, they go twice a month and while they used to

[00:11:03] use the thumbnail layer, you should do this. And you know, I just didn't have the time at first,

[00:11:09] but after, you know, some personal stuff that happened in my life around December,

[00:11:14] I started getting some therapy and it has done a lot for me. Good. Well, I mean,

[00:11:21] I'm amazed that, you know, all the work you've done and all the things you've been involved with

[00:11:28] you're not horizontal on the floor rather than kind of talking to me still. It's just the

[00:11:34] and the work, the work is so stressful, I imagine. Yeah, it can be stressful, especially when

[00:11:41] sometimes stuff happens and you're no longer needed to invest a guess or, you know, there's some

[00:11:49] bad cases and there's some good cases. I mostly look forward to the good cases because it gives

[00:11:55] you that adrenaline rush that keeps you going. Okay. Well, listen, what what's your own take

[00:12:00] then worldwide on the various problems? I mean, trafficking, slavery, abuse, you know,

[00:12:11] it's all just titles of ways that people abuse other people. Is it any way coming on

[00:12:20] took any kind of control or is it just exponentially getting bigger and bigger and bigger?

[00:12:26] Well, you would think that it's based on the headlines. It's getting worse and worse, but,

[00:12:33] you know, in reality, it's just we are getting better at detecting it. Yeah. Because I mean,

[00:12:38] some of the statistics here in Canada, you hear them and they're kind of surprising, but then when

[00:12:47] you think about it, they're basing those numbers off of known statistics, which is sometimes

[00:12:54] 1% of what's actually going on in the background. That's what people need to realize.

[00:13:01] Yeah, I mean, I've talked to people in other parts of the discipline that you get involved with and

[00:13:07] the numbers do vary hugely even with very experienced people. You know, some say several

[00:13:14] millions, some say differently. I talk to the missing kids in Europe and they say 250,000 kids

[00:13:21] a year ago missing in Europe, others say 500,000. You know, it's so difficult to try and

[00:13:27] absolutely pin down what the range of the problem is. Do you find data collection as a huge

[00:13:33] problem? Yeah, it is because we don't know the breadth of the issue. I mean, they set

[00:13:39] a through the RLO international language organization. The stats are about

[00:13:46] was that 150 million? Yeah, I mean, it's just mind boggling numbers. Yeah. So what's encouraging?

[00:13:58] Let's start with the good stuff. All right. What's encouraging you about what you see out there?

[00:14:09] I'd say that we're getting better at finding these kids. But again, I mean, we're not going

[00:14:17] to rest our way out of the issue. There needs to be more prevention. So we're going to need to start

[00:14:23] and training the kids from when they go to school in order to spot these issues and take care

[00:14:29] of it early. It seems to me, I've been doing podcasts. Well, this is like I'm now in the 11th

[00:14:38] year of this podcast. But in the last few years, I've done quite a bit to do with the kind of work

[00:14:45] you're involved with. And it seems to me that there are so many different organizations. Do you

[00:14:51] think that it's too disparate or should there be more joined up thinking between organizations

[00:14:58] or does it just work because it works? I think that there's too many orgs just popping out of nowhere.

[00:15:07] There's not enough funding. There's the big orgs which have so much overhead

[00:15:13] that, you know, I've done more in a year of no budget than they've done in five years with

[00:15:20] a massive million dollar budget. Interesting. Interesting. So I mean, is there any moves of food that

[00:15:29] you can see internationally whether it's the UN or other organizations trying to pull things under

[00:15:36] a more controlled umbrella? I don't really see too much going on. It's just

[00:15:45] more organizations popping up left right in center. I find that like critical response,

[00:15:54] the different crisis responses, they're starting to get a lot better. Yeah. So we did

[00:15:59] in pretty much everywhere. There was Afghanistan. There was the Gaza response. There was

[00:16:08] the Ukraine response. Now there's Haiti. There was Jamaica. I mean, it was starting to do responses

[00:16:16] and all these countries that are having tough times but we need to start focusing on ourselves

[00:16:23] a little bit more. You know what I mean? I do. I do. I mean, it starts at home. Doesn't that?

[00:16:31] Yeah. I mean, having a world government doesn't seem like a bad move at this point.

[00:16:39] You know, some people will yell conspiracy theory but I mean, without this centralized government,

[00:16:46] for instance, working on that one of those pig buttoring cases. Okay. And, uh,

[00:16:51] while the military have me on there, they took over their government so that they could open up

[00:16:58] this 15 billion dollar compound called KK Park in Myanmar. So when these type of situations happen,

[00:17:09] you know, China is protecting them but these compounds are all for these Chinese gamblers

[00:17:14] but China doesn't agree with the gambling. They don't, they want to keep the money in

[00:17:21] size China. So when you have these dictators, you know, specifying who they're protecting and who

[00:17:29] they're bullying then it kind of gets out of hand and the world's not a line to right now.

[00:17:36] And then tell the world gets aligned and some, you know, central goals. And I don't think anything's

[00:17:44] going to get better. The world is lurkching. It seems to me between kind of dictators and liberal

[00:17:53] democracies ringing their hands and lack of funding and crisis this crisis that. And I would get

[00:18:01] really in a capitalist society. I mean, that's all there is as money. But what if, you know,

[00:18:08] we weren't capitalists. What if we could just, you know, a podcast for social good?

[00:18:18] Well, you know, join the club and my tiny little way for the last few years. I have not monetized

[00:18:24] this podcast. I pay for it myself and I just enjoy the idea. We've done 160 third

[00:18:33] program that I've done. And I could easily do 163 more with all the stuff that I get. And

[00:18:43] I'm only just scratching the surface talking to, to experience people like you. I mean,

[00:18:49] just sometimes to be honest Larry seems mind boggling. Yeah, I mean, if we reduce a lot of the

[00:18:56] competition and we work together and you know, everybody had a home, you know, everybody had a home.

[00:19:03] That was human right then there'd be no homelessness. I mean, if everyone grew their own food and

[00:19:08] shared, and there wouldn't be no hunger. Those are just small little goals. I mean, one of the

[00:19:16] there's proof of concepts starting Cambodia where they gave a universal benefit. I think was about

[00:19:22] $3 a day. So what that did is prevented the community from selling their kids. Now, since we're

[00:19:29] not selling their kids, they also added some advanced training to the teachers. So these teachers

[00:19:36] they learned concepts like AI machine learning, robotics, etc. So what happened there is,

[00:19:44] you know, they started teaching the kids these advanced concepts. They started getting scholarships.

[00:19:49] They started supporting their parents. And then after I think it was two or three years,

[00:19:56] they stopped accepting that universal benefit. They felt shame in receiving it because they were fine.

[00:20:03] Okay. So the kids were now taking care of their parents. The community worked together. The

[00:20:13] SDGs, the sustainable development goals brought out by the United Nations. I mean, there's just

[00:20:19] little things you can change in a community to make them a hundred times better.

[00:20:24] Oh, I do. I get it. I get it and I really wish that more people would think the same way that you do.

[00:20:32] I remember a couple of things. This will probably resonate with you. But about 20 odd years ago,

[00:20:36] I did some work with them. What was they in Interpol, in Sri Lanka and the Pacific Rim,

[00:20:44] about sex tourism? And you know, walking along the beach in Colombia,

[00:20:51] I was offered children under five for the price of a pint of beer. And of course you have to

[00:20:58] interrupt that. You have to stop that. It's just terrible. But on the other hand, there's no welfare

[00:21:03] or there wasn't then, anyway. I don't know. But no, there wasn't any welfare and Sri Lanka. So

[00:21:08] if some a family had say eight children and they found out the youngest, that was the only

[00:21:14] income that the others were getting to eat. And so you've got this horrible dilemma, a little bit

[00:21:19] probably like the puppy fields in Afghanistan or wherever. I mean, it's this constant problem.

[00:21:26] So this idea of a universal benefit that you mentioned. Some of the Scandinavian countries are

[00:21:32] serious on Switzerland, did for a while. They had a referendum on it. Actually giving everybody

[00:21:36] in the country a fixed income. Yeah. You know, it's sort of died a death. But it keeps popping

[00:21:45] its head up now and again as an idea. I just wish somebody would try and see it through properly.

[00:21:50] Don't you? Yeah. I mean, it just takes someone with the right idea to put it forth like in that

[00:21:57] room from concept. I mean, you could change all of Cambodia by rolling that out.

[00:22:04] But do the kind of, you got to come and see what you've got to implement either.

[00:22:08] Yeah. Yeah. Well, okay, listen, you're in Canada, right?

[00:22:13] Yeah. I mean, not let just take North America generally. I guess you've got such a lot of

[00:22:20] types through that continent. But you think that there's far too many small groups just starting up

[00:22:28] on the wave of kind of sympathy rather than in the need for proper organization. Is that a fair

[00:22:35] assessment? Yeah. And if you're going to assess an NGO or nonprofit, I mean, ask them what they have

[00:22:42] actually done. I mean, you're not going to eradicate the issue through awareness, right?

[00:22:48] Making people aware of the issue is not going to eradicate it. And when people say eradicate,

[00:22:54] you know, it's kind of far fetched because there's always going to be trafficking.

[00:23:01] It's just we have a way to prevent it and reduce it. But we are not going to eradicate it.

[00:23:09] It's an unreasonable expectation. So you got to watch what these NGOs say. I think,

[00:23:17] though, I mean, because you're speaking to somebody here who's entire now because I'm kind of just

[00:23:25] just do this. Like, I want to be able to raise awareness, but by talking to people who are doing the

[00:23:31] business, but I wouldn't dream of actually getting stuck in myself anymore. I did that for decades

[00:23:36] before, but now I all I want to do is allow people to have a voice. I think though, so many people

[00:23:46] just really don't have enough. I mean, do you get involved with supply chain stuff?

[00:23:52] You know, the food we eat, the clothes we wear, the absolute abuse of mainly children and many cases

[00:24:01] to actually produce the stuff or create the stuff that we eat without knowing about the horrible

[00:24:08] stuff that they have to go through to satisfy us. That's the sort of stuff I really think could be

[00:24:15] dumped on. If only governments would actually, those that actually have the money would actually

[00:24:20] say right no more money, you know, until you actually clean up your act.

[00:24:26] Yeah, I've been getting engaged in some supply chain investigations and I mean just

[00:24:33] you know what I'm talking about that. Can you can you can you can you mention anything without

[00:24:37] breaking confidence? I can talk about one of them. It's said the gold supply chain from Ghana

[00:24:48] to the UAE, I will just say that. So you know, let's say if they reported

[00:25:00] 1800 tons of gold being shipped to UAE from Ghana, but on the UAE side, they're reporting

[00:25:10] let's say 2800 tons. Okay, so Africa's reporting this much and Ghana's are

[00:25:20] Ghana's reporting this much and then UAE's reporting this much. Now there is a massive difference

[00:25:27] in the amount of tons. I think it was what's uh yeah, that was in tons. Double yeah, right.

[00:25:34] Yeah, so and then you got it also realized that that real gold supply is being

[00:25:42] tainted with this illegal gold supply. So what happens in these illegal small lines? I mean that's

[00:25:49] way that these you know villages support themselves, but they're sending their kids. But their

[00:25:56] kids are no longer going to school and they're getting neurological issues because of the

[00:26:01] chemicals used to separate the gold. Okay, okay and they're unsafe working conditions. Yeah.

[00:26:07] So not only is this real gold supply being enriched with the false, they're also under reporting

[00:26:12] and they're also killing off the next generation of children just so they can eat.

[00:26:17] Yeah, yeah. A tragedy and but not uncommon sadly. I get it. Okay, so you're getting involved with

[00:26:27] that? How would you become involved with that by kind of shining a light on it working with

[00:26:32] law enforcement, talking international law? I mean what involvement would you have?

[00:26:39] Are there some in government? There is some in just investigations that I'm doing against a person

[00:26:48] that would then be uncovered. See it's kind of going down a rabbit hole in that case. So you

[00:26:54] uncover all these massive issues. It could start with money laundering. Well where are they getting

[00:26:58] all this money? Okay, you trace it back to this gold mining and ganna but then you trace the

[00:27:04] difference in reporting and all the corruption in between. Well the regulations and everything.

[00:27:10] You start finding holes in all this and then you start finding people in government that are involved.

[00:27:16] So you know it may start with anything as a missing child and

[00:27:21] this person's one that took him and then they have a lot of money and then where is that extra

[00:27:26] money coming from and then you start going down these rabbit holes and building a bigger picture?

[00:27:30] My, my law enforcement around the world is obviously I suspect very different shades

[00:27:40] depending which country you're standing in. Do you have any optimism that

[00:27:48] law enforcement is improving? They are and because you're having so many victims now

[00:27:57] so these victims actually want to make a difference. So they're becoming a Pd law enforcement or

[00:28:03] could be part of an NGO. So the more victims you have, you can either be going down bad route

[00:28:11] or you can be trying to advocate for the issue and trying to make things better.

[00:28:15] Okay. Do you come across my think corruption? Yeah, that's where corruption comes from. Do you want

[00:28:24] making things better? Do you want to make things worse? Yeah. Corruption is massively getting worse,

[00:28:32] so because they are the ones taking over the government? Right. So yeah. So some of these

[00:28:40] organizations are so much bigger than the politics. The, the, the, the, the actually the ones that

[00:28:46] run the country, aren't they? Yep. By now or are they controlled the politics and they run the

[00:28:51] country? Yeah. Yeah. And they run the law enforcement and sometimes they run the military.

[00:28:57] How can that's where we need to start stabbing out the corruption? How can it be stopped? I mean,

[00:29:04] how can it be challenged if if an entire standalone nation, you know, who's kind of got

[00:29:11] total kind of immunity if you like because they are, they can't, you know, they can't be

[00:29:17] challenged in their own borders. But I mean, how do they, how do they just the rest of the world

[00:29:21] do with the, I mean, sanctions are so very, don't they? Yeah. I mean, sanctions only work so far.

[00:29:28] I mean, look at Russia, the evading sanctions, China's evading sanctions, all these other

[00:29:33] countries are evading sanctions. I mean, that way, I mean, if you did have the centralized government

[00:29:40] who could audit and could detect these things and actually action them, then that's when things

[00:29:49] will start getting better. But I mean, it could also make a worse. Well, I think history

[00:29:55] shown as the number of countries that I've had empires and have come and gone. I mean Britain,

[00:30:04] America, Sweden, everybody. I mean, China is presumably the latest contender to be a world

[00:30:14] an empire isn't it, really? Well, or it could be an empire. It could be an empire. Yeah,

[00:30:22] yes, I mean, I take it from what you were saying earlier, it would be great if everybody could work together.

[00:30:28] I just get the impression that United Nations is to be honest with you, pretty toothless. It might

[00:30:35] be good at some things, such as humanitarian aid and stuff like that. But in terms of enforcement

[00:30:40] or in terms of actually getting people to stop doing criminal stuff, I mean, I can't see the United

[00:30:47] Nations is being very strong. Am I right? Is that just an impression?

[00:30:54] I've been faring, well, the reason that they stopped that stuff in Cambodia was

[00:31:01] that they started getting global pressure on them. And even the president there, Prime Minister

[00:31:08] whenever it doesn't Cambodia, they were receiving a lot of bribes. But when they put their foot down,

[00:31:15] Cambodia actually reacted and they rated about 10,000 venues. Did that stop all the criminals? No,

[00:31:22] they just put up shop somewhere else. Yeah. These illegal gambling facilities know that.

[00:31:29] Well, I mean, I'm sure they've actually human nature isn't it? I mean, I'm sitting in a country

[00:31:36] that so-called controlled sort of nearly two thirds of the world landspick about a few hundred years ago.

[00:31:47] And that doesn't really, and that's still kind of having aftershocks.

[00:31:53] Yeah. So people need to start providing more opportunities. I mean, if there were opportunities,

[00:31:59] you know, for people to get a job or open up a business and have their own home and not go

[00:32:07] hungry and not have to stress every day, I think the world would be a much happier and better place

[00:32:14] with less corruption and crime. People usually turn to crime because they don't have any opportunities

[00:32:20] and it's all they know. Are you involved with programs that try to achieve that even locally?

[00:32:30] I mean, because you're obviously very well steeped in trying to kind of the forensic side of it

[00:32:37] if you like and you know working with law enforcement and trying to stop people being abused.

[00:32:43] But the bigger picture that you've just outlined there but trying to create if you like a more

[00:32:49] equal or caring society, I mean, do you get involved much with that kind of activity?

[00:32:57] Yeah, I'd love to do a lot more and if I had more funding, the first thing I would do is go

[00:33:04] I'd go to Tennessee and visit Beno and Jessica Owen and assist them with all their endeavors.

[00:33:12] They have no them. I don't know them. Could you tell them?

[00:33:17] Yeah. So they have, you know, by the block. So what they did, they bought the houses where

[00:33:23] the drug dealers were so they got them out and then they started fixing up all the houses and

[00:33:29] giving low low income or subsidized housing to people.

[00:33:34] You know, and they get them close. They just try to take care of the community where they grew up

[00:33:39] and where they didn't have the opportunities at the time.

[00:33:44] So they tried to clean up the road by the ground.

[00:33:46] Yeah, they can take care of the road by the ground.

[00:33:48] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:33:50] Good. I will look up and give us some clues as to how to find them. I would very much like to

[00:33:56] see what they're doing. Yep. He owns, uh, we fight monsters and also flanders fields.

[00:34:03] And there's a once-American thing. I mean, they buy these houses. They fix them up. These were

[00:34:09] ones where they actually overdosed and died in, right? Yeah. Right. And they fix them up and it's

[00:34:17] you know, it's very sentimental to them and I can feel it in their posts.

[00:34:22] But it's real life is real life progress, real life kind of evolution if you like in terms of

[00:34:30] humanitarian sort of work. I mean, that's what we need. I mean, it might be a small scale but by

[00:34:35] goodness people need to have examples like that don't they? I mean, it's getting much bigger

[00:34:41] scale for them. I mean, they're even given children jobs so they can make these

[00:34:46] charcoal or your cutting boards. I mean, there are expensive boards but they're high quality and

[00:34:51] they're teaching kids new skills and they're keeping them up the streets. Yep. I mean,

[00:34:56] if I had the money, I'd put dozens of programs through them. I've got a good friend who runs a

[00:35:01] charity in the north of Scotland with for youngsters and others who have got special educational

[00:35:07] needs or have real trouble or have had been in trouble or whatever and what they do is they gather

[00:35:13] older bits of furniture from all around the city, the communities and everything and they do it up

[00:35:19] and sell it. But it amongst all of that they get everything from tutoring to support to advice,

[00:35:25] to skills, to learn satisfaction, you know, the whole thing that you've kind of just been outlining

[00:35:32] there that people need. So I'm actually sort of self belief. Yeah, well again it's the opportunity

[00:35:40] thing once you start having opportunity you usually don't go back to your old life. No, no.

[00:35:48] Okay, look, we've been about five minutes. I should think and I really want to give you a chance.

[00:35:54] People listen to this, right? Who probably let's say the average person listen to this would be

[00:36:00] some kind of professional person usually working in front-line services, whether it's law enforcement

[00:36:06] or social services or health or education, whatever. But they need to have a sense of what they could

[00:36:16] do, you know the eyes and ears thing, you used to be involved with organizations of our member

[00:36:21] rightly that was had the kind of mantra, follow the money. Yeah, we have to human trafficking

[00:36:27] intelligence initiative. Yeah, I mean, I still work with an astronaut's

[00:36:32] obthection task force, the traverse project and let's traverse project.org or the

[00:36:39] central foundation foundation sent to old.org. You've got so many links on the other board.

[00:36:46] Okay, more on my front page here. I mean listen, I mean what advice would you give? See somebody's

[00:36:54] listening to this and quite rightly will be shocked by the numbers, shocked by the work you do,

[00:37:00] you know really concerned and so forth and kind of thinking this is just so overwhelming.

[00:37:07] So mind-boggling but what can your average Joe do listening to, you know, what advice would you give them?

[00:37:16] Paramorduction. I mean stop arresting these kids and stop throwing them in Juvi, stop,

[00:37:25] you know, you need to treat people better and give them opportunity otherwise they're not going to get

[00:37:30] better if you keep punishing them. You're just going to keep on getting worse and worse.

[00:37:36] I mean that's what happens and that's why some of these communities are just horrible.

[00:37:41] And they become victims. The only thing that's important is the unity is.

[00:37:45] They're easy to become victims too aren't they? Yes.

[00:37:49] Yeah, okay look Larry. I mean I don't want to leave it another two years if you didn't mind

[00:37:55] until I talk with you again because it's great following your career as it were and following what

[00:38:00] you're doing. So maybe unless them two years maybe I could come back if that's all right with

[00:38:07] and see what's what? Would you be willing to do this at a minimum once a year?

[00:38:12] What's your okay good minimum? No I'll do that. I'll do that but listen I'm going to have to

[00:38:18] stop no and I've got your friend I mean I have got your friend coming up soon,

[00:38:24] Karim Rajwani who's very much into following the money on the kind of a you know they

[00:38:30] are forensic accounting side and that will be coming up in a couple of weeks. So next week I've

[00:38:38] got the ex children's commissioner for England who's just written a good book about

[00:38:44] for teenage children about big ideas you know if you like sort of these children and

[00:38:52] her book is it is a very very good read and it outlines all the sort of stuff and in England it's

[00:38:58] a big deal at the moment with knife crime county lines drugs you children being used as

[00:39:04] couriers and mules and also such stuff. I mean I really want to kind of get everybody involved

[00:39:11] in this but for today Larry Cameron thank you very much indeed for being a guest on the program.

[00:39:18] Well thanks for having me again