164 Anne Longfield CBE

[00:00:13] Welcome back everybody to the Social World podcast, I'm David Niven and you can always

[00:00:18] just google this as thoughts on the social world and you'll get here as well.

[00:00:23] It's a real pleasure to have you company back again after the summer break but I've got

[00:00:29] some really excellent podcasts coming up, excellent guests as usual and I hope that

[00:00:36] this is going to sort of really stimulate your interest.

[00:00:39] Today I'm really pleased to have Anne Longfield and Longfield CBE who has at least 30 years

[00:00:49] now professionally of working with and being involved with professionally with children

[00:00:55] and she was the Children's Commissioner for England from 2015 to 2021 but now she's the

[00:01:04] young lives and she's not only very well network but she's also very carefully

[00:01:11] listen to I believe.

[00:01:14] Tonight interrupt, I'm really sorry, I'm the executive chair of the centre of young lives.

[00:01:23] Oh, okay, I'll tell you why I said that then but that's fine to clear that up thank you

[00:01:28] because you've now written a book and the book Young Life is big ambitions and on the back cover of it

[00:01:34] it says you're the chair of the commission on young lives.

[00:01:37] When it was printed I was, evolution right okay.

[00:01:44] The commission I morphed into the centre of young life which is an ongoing entity

[00:01:52] and that launched at the beginning of February.

[00:01:54] Excellent, well look we're going to obviously we're going to talk about that.

[00:01:58] Yeah and thanks for coming on the program now.

[00:02:00] I think it's important that although I know of you and obviously I've been kind of familiar with the work

[00:02:07] you did over it especially over the six years as Children's Commissioner but not others might not know

[00:02:13] if your history a little bit if you could just fill us in about the progress you're journey

[00:02:18] if you like and how you got to where you are.

[00:02:21] Yeah, delighted to and thanks so much for inviting me along for a chat.

[00:02:29] So all of my working life has been around children, young people and families.

[00:02:39] I first worked in the 80s with saved the children fund in the UK

[00:02:48] and then researched department spent a lot of time in their projects looking at what they did.

[00:02:57] I spent some time working in parts of in a London during the GLC Greater London Council days that is.

[00:03:08] And then spent about 20 years at a charity which became for children, which was very much about childcare.

[00:03:21] Children's wider well being support for families and sure start a lot of campaigning and delivery around sure start.

[00:03:32] The Children's Commissioner for England role is a huge privilege.

[00:03:38] It has fantastic powers around data collection and my focus there was very much about vulnerable children and young people really trying to use that opportunity to shine a spotlight on quite where children fell through the gaps in.

[00:03:59] In our society and our systems in our support and systematically looking at how services support can lean into these children can identify early on when they need help and what kind of help that might mean.

[00:04:19] From being children's Commissioner I've spent time I set up the Commission on Young Lives.

[00:04:24] I give very much a vulnerable teenager and putting forward recommendations to help those protect those vulnerable teenagers but also to give them a springboard to success.

[00:04:35] And the sent-per-young lives was established as an ongoing entity at the beginning of this year.

[00:04:41] Much of this is continuing the work around vulnerable children and young people because many have struggles in school as they're growing up.

[00:04:55] Which has huge impacts on their life chances.

[00:04:59] A much of this campaign prevented.

[00:05:01] So what we're seeking to do is to look at how we reset our services support for children and young people and sure that those who need it most get the help they need.

[00:05:12] Okay.

[00:05:14] Thank you.

[00:05:15] Lovely.

[00:05:15] Excellent.

[00:05:16] Well, it seems like an incredibly packed career so far but there we are.

[00:05:21] Listen, I want to pick up a couple of points as it were that you've been seeing there. That's all right just to sort of check it from my point of view but also let's take the six years you were Commissioner for children's Commissioner for England there.

[00:05:36] Just a couple of things that I'm most interested in because I was very well aware of your you and your office during that time and the things that you were doing.

[00:05:44] But from your point of view, let what stands out successfully first in your memory you know one or two things that you really pro that you managed to sort of get through and achieve and then I'll ask you one or two any regrets that you got after that.

[00:06:01] So I think the core of what I think we did well and I'm really pleased we did was really set up a framework for understanding vulnerability and focusing on it.

[00:06:17] And I was the third children's Commissioner and people don't tell you what to do when your children's well plenty people do tell you what to do but you know you don't get any four more instructions as such.

[00:06:30] You've got status responsibilities but you know it's down to you to identify the areas which are most important to work upon.

[00:06:37] And the offices hadn't had evidence departments before they hadn't had.

[00:06:47] You know they hadn't had the range of powers until I came into post I was the first person to be exposed with kind of strength and power.

[00:06:55] So I set up an evidence team which would really.

[00:07:00] Bring clarity and.

[00:07:05] Data and evidence to what we all knew that a lot of children were for a whole range of reasons.

[00:07:12] And more risk of not being able to get on in life than others so we established what we called a vulnerability framework 140 different indicates vulnerability.

[00:07:24] Constantly updating and that was for me something.

[00:07:29] I was very, very proud of and that then also you know drew you to the areas of policy that you really needed to.

[00:07:39] Focus on one of those was around children's mental health now you know we all know now and that set that there's a big problem with children's mental health and this country is an epidemic many would say and I agree with them.

[00:07:54] But for the first few years our children's commission you know it was making the case but that actually children's mental health was a problem.

[00:08:02] And it was quite a firm pushback to say oh no you know we've turned the curve you know it's it's all in hand.

[00:08:11] And we stuck our next out quite a lot to analyze the data to clearly show that what that's what meant that what that meant to talk to young people about their fears about not getting the help they need and to make that part of mainstream dialogue which I'm really proud.

[00:08:30] Well I was going to ask you if I could just interrupt the second just just sticking on that point for a moment.

[00:08:36] It's nice to me like you managed to create which is fantastic you know an identification system are kind of a more of a how to more clarity of the data involved more evidence and so on.

[00:08:47] Yeah that's that was terrific but were you pleased with or disappointed with the policy implementers that could you know doing things with what you had just actually given them.

[00:09:00] Well I mean I wanted north a lot more no I was a particularly pleased is the answer.

[00:09:09] I mean I was pleased that was an increase understanding even an increased discussion and some green shoes but cove the covid pandemic was my final year the coge on the commissioners are six year post.

[00:09:23] And the cove the covid came along in the last year and to me that was the biggest test our country ever had in terms of how it protects how it views children how the system of support for children is working and set up and I in my view for the most vulnerable children it failed.

[00:09:49] Did you manage to give when you give evidence the cove it inquiry did you manage to get your point across you think successfully.

[00:09:56] Oh yeah I'm I think Baroness Hallick was very clear that actually my view children were not only overlooked after more ignored during that period and some of it is down to the fact that our machinery of government just doesn't have that emphasis on children.

[00:10:16] Or that clear commitment of priority children that some other countries do so if it comes down to the will of those in power to decide whether they want to prioritize children or not.

[00:10:30] Well actually you know in my view they weren't prioritised and the reason behind the the vulnerability work and the light really drew from the fact that you know when I come into post.

[00:10:43] Lots of people said to me I talked to different policy teams different departments and they'd also well our ministers very concerned about the vulnerable.

[00:10:54] And that's they like who and everyone would describe that vulnerability through the lens of that department.

[00:11:02] So how would talk about you know potential people who are patients.

[00:11:07] You know in education it be pupils in the Ministry of Justice it would be people young people in custody.

[00:11:15] It was all a segment or a symptom of what was going wrong rather than children in the round and rather than you know a commitment to children.

[00:11:25] You know in their own right.

[00:11:28] So we were we were being ambitious and thinking big about this but it was always going to be more than a three or four year project it was always going to be a project that took at least ten years which in part.

[00:11:42] Drivers to the point where we not only set up the commission on young lives because that was for me the group of children teams who were most at risk.

[00:11:54] And furthest away from a policy solution there was a policy void in my opinion in government.

[00:11:59] But then onto the cent of the young lives and then work when they're doing okay.

[00:12:04] Can I just ask you quickly then two things firstly do you see evidence that your successor Rachel you know is actually kind of managing to develop things further as well now and and have you got some optimism there.

[00:12:20] But you also didn't actually see what are some of the things are one of the least one of the things that you feel unfortunate about that it was a regret if you like that that didn't manage to happen.

[00:12:36] Well I think that six years when you set out feels like a very long time yeah.

[00:12:42] It quickly goes past and with the last year taken with the pandemic you don't get you know you're never going to be able to do what you want everything you want so.

[00:12:59] You know I'm really proud work on mental health.

[00:13:04] Work on social media work on kids who fall through the gap in education what do I regret well I regret we didn't have more time to embed the vulnerability work.

[00:13:14] I regret that we couldn't get through the kind of support for early intervention that we might have wanted but look you know you can't you haven't got you know you haven't got the power to do that in that role.

[00:13:34] You're right I do understand that you know you're a light reliant on the politicians of the day.

[00:13:40] Yeah.

[00:13:40] The children's commissioners office now has been a higher profile.

[00:13:46] Well as much thanks to yourself as anything else you know that I mean you've managed to actually push the profile forward.

[00:13:52] We worked hard on that because we knew that you know some of this was convincing the public that children not need.

[00:14:03] We needed to be a priority which of course everyone would say in terms of.

[00:14:09] In in in in in terms of their own kind of context but actually is a nation actually a lot of people assume that children have much higher priority with decision makers than they had so you know very much part of that was.

[00:14:26] I mean I'm talking to parents talking to children but you know really take in the general public with you and I think over that time there was a sea change in attitude towards the kind of support that children should get especially around some of the things that I've mentioned.

[00:14:42] Well let's let me interrupt your second just to see because I want to get to the center for young lives and then also to talk about your book.

[00:14:50] So let's do a let's try a segue then about have your managed to take forward into your work with the center for young lives.

[00:15:01] Much of the drive that you actually started if you like when you were commissioner.

[00:15:09] Well the work that we've been doing as a commissioner on young lives and now the center for young lives is a direct continuation of the focus on vulnerability that.

[00:15:19] I've had over what worked to be honest but certainly from the children's commissioner time more visibly so.

[00:15:29] This is a group of as that have found it the central for young lives who work together and have worked together for a number of years.

[00:15:38] In part during the time as children's commissioner as well.

[00:15:44] And when we set up the commission on young lives looking at vulnerable teenagers especially those at risk of violence and harm that for me was.

[00:15:54] Really a gap in policy within government they just wasn't the kind of infrastructure there that would look at these children nor was the policy teams there looking at solutions or.

[00:16:07] Being able to put the you know that these through the priorities so we also knew everyone sees a headlines how many young people.

[00:16:18] Are a risk of harm and danger and you know the headlines speak for themselves we spend a year.

[00:16:26] Talking to those who know how to make a difference and communities and young people and their families and put forward a platform that we think is ambitious at the heart of that was.

[00:16:38] A series of hubs for young people who are almost the sure stop teens and I'm delighted that that was one of the commitments that the prime minister backed put it in his manifesto and is now being prepared for delivery.

[00:16:55] And in the book I talk about some of those conversations with those young people.

[00:17:01] Well let's just clarify what the book is first of all right because I think people.

[00:17:06] So the book narrates and tells a story set out the policy context and the solutions as we saw them and our dice or them around young people who were not getting the chance in life that they should.

[00:17:27] So young lives big ambitions that's right.

[00:17:30] That's the title and it says it says on that transforming life chances for vulnerable children and teens.

[00:17:37] So I mean it's pretty clear what actually a setting out to do I must say that the actual.

[00:17:44] The critics from all sorts of different people that are actually there front very impressive and actually you know the idea that although you actually are pretty worried at the moment about the if you like the attention and the resources.

[00:17:59] And if you like even the understanding of what children need at the moment.

[00:18:03] But on the other hand you do feel that how many children's lives have been wasted but you talk about how you can turn it around you talk about hope you haven't just identified the problem as far as I can understand it and people sort of really appreciate that.

[00:18:18] Well I hope so I mean this is a book which was tough to write I know it's tough going to read.

[00:18:27] But ultimately it's about what not only we should do about this but what we can do about this.

[00:18:34] I mean we look at some of the serious case reviews that shows.

[00:18:40] Braze were always very familiar with of opportunities, Mr. Young people who through a series of kind of stages become marginalized.

[00:18:53] For through the gaps in school.

[00:18:56] Start to be targeted by adults who want to exploit them.

[00:19:00] Sometimes fall into crime and criminal justice system sometimes ending with tragedy.

[00:19:09] And talk to parents about you know not only what that meant but what could have made the difference talk to young people about what could have made the difference.

[00:19:19] And it seemed to me that we have a system at the moment that far too often kind of leans away from those young people.

[00:19:27] You know terms you hear terms like they're too old to help to complicated you can't help some children, especially when they get a bit older and I just wasn't ready to accept that because not only could you see where it was going well.

[00:19:46] And where there were brilliant small scale community organizations transforming lives.

[00:19:54] But also you knew from those conversations what would have made the difference.

[00:20:00] To come back, isn't there?

[00:20:02] I mean there's part from county lines, knife prime violence poverty.

[00:20:08] Also the issues know that we have to consider of slavery or human trafficking and just exploitation on the internet generally as well.

[00:20:17] There's a lot of you know there's a lot of there's a lot of things that young people have to continue with but at the heart of this.

[00:20:25] If you have protected back to the round you if you have relationships in your family that you can count on and that are there for you.

[00:20:37] If you have relationships with teachers, if you have relationships with youth workers if you're in place is to go where you can get support and be with friends if your school is responsive to you when you say you have in the tough time or that you're concerned about your well being or.

[00:20:55] You know you're you're struggling risk of exclusion if you get school that leans into you and can offer that support.

[00:21:05] Then so many times children can overcome those and continue successfully and what we looked at in the commission and what I look in the book is every part of that system what would that mean well it would mean that you know schools are being inclusive they recognize that some kids.

[00:21:25] And they're just needs an extra help they would have those relationships with support services in place to be able to wrap around them I know more difficult because.

[00:21:35] A stutter as meant that there's less less of a resource there but non the less with a with a you know a willing commitment from school so many kids you could see we've visited them.

[00:21:47] Could actually achieve great things be able to have mental health support that came to the kids so many said that I'm not going to go to clinics.

[00:21:57] I'm not going to go and be referred to a doctor but actually it would be great if there was someone I could go and talk to so prioritizing again.

[00:22:06] Bending the system towards young people working with families to rent children getting into crisis and getting into care but if they do have to go into care making sure that it's responsive to them their needs as teenagers.

[00:22:22] All of those things combined where you know the young person can get the benefit of that support.

[00:22:30] One thing if I might just because before we leave that particular part of things.

[00:22:36] I remember when we were talking before just chatting if you like about this this program.

[00:22:42] You talked of the thousands of teenagers who are on unregulated accommodation.

[00:22:49] And you then you mentioned also the McAllister review of children social care so absolutely.

[00:22:55] I thought you might want to sort of amplify that a little bit.

[00:22:59] Yeah well while I was writing the book the Josh McAllister's review was was.

[00:23:06] Being entertained and I was looking particularly at how teenagers.

[00:23:11] They're in the care system and of course it's been a huge growth of teens going into care but the care system hasn't.

[00:23:20] Being able to keep pace or be able to provide the support often that teenagers need but that makes them doubly vulnerable of course they're far away from home often.

[00:23:33] They've lost their network of friends sometimes is really shoes around contextual safeguarding in the first place that meant they've been there.

[00:23:42] But very very often they were placed in what then was referred to as unregulated accommodation young people told me how they move the were moved very often they were put into places that were unsafe.

[00:23:58] And there were put into places where those that wish to exploit you knew exactly where you were so with power the McAllister review I was feeding in from the commission and from the.

[00:24:13] The conversations around this book around what some of the solutions could be you know try and work with families let's put protective arms around families and supports of families so children teens didn't have to go into care identify young people earlier.

[00:24:33] They take more of priority around kinship care and reach that.

[00:24:41] Just take your way for the story in track from the family for a second because before we lose that point would you say that you managed to find a lot of evidence to do with what some people see in significant numbers of federal children.

[00:24:57] Well, I think the young people that I spoke to and I'm not quite sure what you define as federal children as such.

[00:25:08] Well, who are living on the streets or living under bridges or.

[00:25:12] The only of course, the resum kids that are homeless but often they're homeless because again they've dropped through a system so a lot of those kids in unregulated accommodation I was absolutely clear that that was letting kids down and was actually putting them into very often a position of greater.

[00:25:38] Threat and some of the young people would run you know they would go missing from those that accommodation.

[00:25:47] So the the the number of times they were moved the fact that they would so often go gone missing you know just.

[00:25:54] Expanded accelerated the risk that they were living with in their lives and I wanted and was very supportive of my call as to review recommendations around.

[00:26:05] That moved a family support that move to family group conferences that move to kinship care but also very specifically while you have teenagers coming into care and in care you need a system that not only have the resources.

[00:26:21] And to be able to support them but the confidence and the skills within that so for instance with.

[00:26:30] With with foster care well one thing that I was really very taken by was a notion that we could be looking to recruit youth workers as foster care as for instance.

[00:26:43] If young people are you know able to build positive relationship with those who have those you know that's their skill set then that surely must speak to us as a positive way forward but you know it's there to be done and I would still say that we need to get along and get that delivered.

[00:27:06] We got about five or ten minutes left so I mean that the something I do want to ask if I may and then we'll make sure we actually sort of big up the book again because I think it's very well worth reading so I want people to listen.

[00:27:20] Did you talk much and have you built up a big network partly when you were commissioner and obviously now with European peers opposite numbers and and I mean my view has always been having no problem.

[00:27:35] You know like heartedly but stealing from the neighbors and in terms of taking projects that are working in other countries and actually somehow or other fitting them into our culture you know.

[00:27:48] Did that that happened as much as you'd like.

[00:27:51] It does and it's properly a network that is you know under use slightly if you like there's a European network of children's commissioners most countries across Europe will have a children's commissioner.

[00:28:10] And there's an office and is some continuity throughout the office and the like.

[00:28:17] And you'd meet once a year and you know there was huge amounts you could gather in green from that I went on a number of visits to other countries with children's commissioners to look at what they did when their father had went to Sweden and Norway.

[00:28:35] And not very much what they did around that kind of pre-secure.

[00:28:44] Aspect if you like or stage in support for young people.

[00:28:51] So they don't need to be in secure accommodation but actually they may if they don't get the support they need and also when they come out secure accommodation we went see those.

[00:29:03] In both those countries we went to Iceland or could have a deal with charge actually abuse in the barn or herses.

[00:29:09] Very taken by that and came back and recommended that.

[00:29:16] But I think that what you what does strike you when you go to somewhere in Scandinavia or the like is where.

[00:29:24] You know it doesn't take long in a conversation for someone a very senior person in government tell that children are you know children very important in this country.

[00:29:34] We take our commitment to children very serious the how we define ourselves as a nation and what was very clear to me is we didn't have we haven't got there in this country yet.

[00:29:44] And actually that was very noticeable during the pandemic we couldn't we couldn't fall back on that commitment during the pandemic so they got lost.

[00:29:55] So ultimately in this book it's how we build a country which is the best place for children to grow up and which does put children as a high priority in center stage.

[00:30:04] You know both in terms of the machinery and government decisions are made but also locally in the terms of decisions around our lives and the way we treat and respect young people because you know if we.

[00:30:16] If we don't help them to flourish we don't have a future ourselves.

[00:30:20] Well I wrote something down when we have a chatting before you know so just try to remember things I can't remember if it was a verbatim quote from you or if it was just my kind of interpretation of what you said.

[00:30:34] But clearly fitting into what you've just talked about a government.

[00:30:38] I've got down here we need more ambition than the corridors of power.

[00:30:44] No, I imagine you would agree with that whether you said it verbatim or not if I wouldn't notice what I thought you said.

[00:30:53] Yeah I mean you know we need ambition for our country.

[00:31:00] Yeah having ambition for our country means having ambition for our children you know they're 20% of our population they're going to be 100% of the future and short term is some connoctin.

[00:31:15] Disweight against from that ambition you know can't be done we don't have enough money it's going to be difficult it's not how that workforce works you know all of those things.

[00:31:26] We need to be ambitious for our children they need us to be so it's it's our responsibility and I think you know we do have a new government of course over recent weeks and we are seeing the difference that some of that political will are ambition can bring.

[00:31:43] With things some of the things we've heard about ambition in terms of education for all children in terms of.

[00:31:55] The willingness to tackle knife crime and also young futures and prevent some of that now of course that need seeing through of course it won't happen so in court and it will take money but the difference it can make if you do have a government that has.

[00:32:13] That ambition wants to make that change not least as well about child poverty and great the child poverty task force.

[00:32:23] Up and running but it needs to follow through it needs to be something that isn't actually about party politics it's about politics has always been like that hasn't said you really have to wait to see if whoever promised something.

[00:32:39] Yeah but it can't be something which is.

[00:32:44] Can be dismantled overnight it needs to become part of how we define our self as a nation and that I think is the challenge now in this period where.

[00:32:56] We have political will to make many of these changes of course to make those changes but to embed it with deep roots in our society in the way we make decisions and across government.

[00:33:08] Okay, well let's finish up by reminding people about your book and let me just start if I might that part that I there's so many different people in here who have actually given glowing references for your book.

[00:33:24] There's one who's it's from a journalist I've just noticed that I really really highly caffeine human from channel four news.

[00:33:30] Yeah.

[00:33:31] Who said Britain's young people have no more powerful advocate than an long field young lives big ambitions is a powerful wake up call for political leaders and a devastating critique of in action to date well I think that's something's up doesn't it.

[00:34:16] Yeah.

[00:34:46] Yeah.

[00:34:47] And courage I suspect you would people to go into that line of work.

[00:34:53] Absolutely.

[00:34:55] We need almost brilliant people to be working with and for children and young people and cause so many are I think the rewards are not only of course rewards in those relationships and that progress and support with those young people themselves if you're.

[00:35:17] Working face to face but the rewards really are about changing a system and seeing the impact it can have on young people's lives.

[00:35:26] We haven't prioritized children there's been a devastating consequence of that and we've seen a huge increase in young people at risk over the last decade but it doesn't have to be like that.

[00:35:39] And being part of that change and part of building that system of support that can really be that springboarder success for young people especially the most disadvantaged around country is a fantastic opportunity to meet there.

[00:35:57] I think to be part of overcoming years.

[00:36:03] Okay. Well, thanks very much again and for being on the program and sharing with us the the well not just the book but actually what actually caused the book and in your history as well and I wish you very well wish the center.

[00:36:20] But young lives very well is indeed as well and make sure that I'll make sure people have got the links to get a hold of them so thank you very much again for being a guest.

[00:36:29] That's it. Thank you so much.