161 Ann Marie Christian Independent Safeguarding Consultant

[00:00:01] Well, welcome back to the social world podcast Thoughts On The Social World is what you would Google and it's delightful to have your company again. I hope you're well and thank you for listening.

[00:00:24] Now today I'm going to do an interview with somebody I wanted to interview for quite some time. I mean one of the pillars of safeguarding in the UK while everywhere for that matter is actually how the education community accepts its responsibility for looking out for children especially

[00:00:46] and effectively how the schools in the UK are geared towards it both legislatively and morally. There's some challenges there, the Binsham problem is there, it's been excluded a bit from the top table as it were in the past but ultimately it can't be denied how important it is

[00:01:08] and today I'm really pleased to be talking to Anne Marie Christian who's an independent education consultant, safeguarding consultant but within enormously long history and a huge bag of experience welcome to the program Anne Marie. Thank you for the invite David number two,

[00:01:31] number two, number one, I mean yes, I know so let's talk a bit about what you're doing now but in context if you could just introduce yourself a little bit about how you've got here to do

[00:01:43] what you do because I know your history is quite extensive and like people to hear that. No problem thank you so much David so I was a foster sister as a teenager my mother was the foster

[00:01:57] and then that led me and exposed me to social work the first time ever and then from there I went on some residential social work and then I also did my degree and I what if I did 1996

[00:02:12] in that yeah as a social work so then I was also I had various placements in different settings and one of them I was in an nursery and early years nursery one I was in a children's home

[00:02:25] and one I was in a local authority social work team and then I went on to obviously the back when I qualified in 96 we were still very low-calorie neighborhood offices so I worked in a

[00:02:38] lovely neighborhood office you know in a really nice area which is social housing and private private housing and we had like our families to our kind of other families and it was very very

[00:02:51] lovely place and then I went on and that was front line and what I loved about that role David was it was family support work as well as social work so because it was locality meaning

[00:03:02] it was in a local area and those days we had in in a local authority you had like maybe eight notes had to like buildings in a sense of around the area because massive area hence local authority

[00:03:15] people locally knew us so people pop into the office to say is angry there like by the close to case or family that I knew is that we around yes um collective a quick word and I

[00:03:25] come out and the case that I knew very well that's been closed and the mother might say we need to talk things aren't great again you started again whatever so definitely it looked like yeah

[00:03:37] back in the mid 90s there really were much more feelings of community I feel cool it was cool it was cool it was cool it was cool it was cool it was as you were but in bed you

[00:03:47] and funnily enough because they're arguing this about the election at the moment about what to do with policing community policing was was really being pushed then as well which I think a lot of

[00:03:58] people might see back and we saw you're up to right so so we had social assistance in that team I remember we had a lady there who was a social assistant um like a social worker but you know you

[00:04:10] would never know she wasn't a social worker that's the sort of thing and she did a lot of community work with the elderly and with the parents etc so yeah those were the days David but

[00:04:18] I went from that role I went from that role into a very niche kind of initiative pilot project I was based in the inclusion project in the school learning mentors education welfare officers the behavioral specialists and in that role we supported the particular I say troubles for

[00:04:43] and brackets that was notoriously known for high exclusions and lots of cases with safeguarding and we reduced the exclusion rate in the first term and we really turned it around and it's really good so I love that role and then that kept me in safeguarding in education because

[00:04:59] and I I always say this I felt like a police woman on the crime scene when I started that role because I was so used to referrals coming into social care and doing investigations of child abuse but in

[00:05:10] the school role it would I it dawned on me that a lot of these schools kind of an a lot of children don't tell but you can still see from the social perspective how a child is playing distress or what could be

[00:05:24] going on and the other thing was I felt that social worker simply stuff assist me only investigate with things go wrong I even is you know referral in just like a couple of seconds because

[00:05:37] I mean it's only because of what's something you said about how you felt because in my memory of that and I'll see if that's the same for you social workers as you said felt like soft police officers

[00:05:47] and police officers working in the same area felt like hard social workers is that I think it's interesting isn't it yeah so I felt that exactly that it was kind of felt that

[00:06:00] we were only called the things went wrong and then we had to be nice about it you know I mean in the sense of investigative rather than actually the other role was more kind of supportive so

[00:06:11] in this role um people's entrusted me because a lot of people thought it wouldn't work having a social work in a school because the taboo you know the whole stereotype about social work etc and

[00:06:23] removing till all that stuff that happens in the press but luckily and actually amazing the worked really well so I was really undercover meaning you know not going around shouting about who I was didn't even know who I was initially with the young people the gravitated towards me

[00:06:40] as sort of big sister's show on to you because finally didn't meet all of my role boom it was interesting because of kids that were problematic and I love a challenge, by the way

[00:06:50] I always like to challenge and the problematic and I hate that word but the kids who appear to display a lot of concern in their behavior or attitude or learning etc with the ones that I

[00:07:02] attracted i.e. would come in sit in my space or knew that I could see through that etc and then in their burnout crisis they'll call me well you know and then I'd gone to feet to them and they

[00:07:13] knew I was non-judge mental that that thought all my values came in as a social worker they knew that nothing was going to surprise me that I was used to all that horrible stuff and it worked well

[00:07:22] so again you know we had a lot of non-recent abuse coming out in a sense of kids not realizing what happened and kept in for a long while and didn't know what to say it was really good role

[00:07:32] we did a lot of like contraception work as well and it was really beautiful role so from that role I had a I went back to uni and did a post-grad for back then we called it practice teaching which

[00:07:43] is now practice educator and then I had a student social worker in that placement and then I went on to manage social workers in school so that was just after kimbie when we're looking at every

[00:07:53] time I'm at as a gentleman through the five outcomes and in in in between I was social care and in education before sorry for people who are listening abroad it was Victorian kimbie

[00:08:04] there's a child that was murdered and caused enough a lot of souls searching among the professions yeah so in that case we she's a girl who came from overseas to live with her step-armed

[00:08:16] and she unfortunately was tortured by her step-armed but at the time she was seen by lots of professionals in various roles and there was a big thing about culture people are seeing that she

[00:08:26] was no tearful because the family was strict rather than she was actually afraid of her care so in in England and she went to five local authorities in the head of very inconsistent responses

[00:08:37] to what was going on so around that time she was full of course she was felt absolutely everybody I think yes but can I say something to you I don't know if it figures for you much

[00:08:49] but again context of that story what's almost amazed me and I want to do some programs about this is that since about the time you're talking about which is what you know 2000 or turn of the century whenever it was there has been every single day about 50,000 children's

[00:09:09] on whatever has been called the register of the day you know the chopper-tection register or chopper-tection plans or whatever about 50,000 any day of the week and of course it comes and goes but it's not changed over the 10 years that's the exact same number roughly with a few

[00:09:28] thousand here and there um of children who are considered to be at risk in our in our society and I kind of can get my head around the fact that there's no three times as many investigations

[00:09:41] but the same time same number of children who are actually considered to be at risk but it does seem a bit odd that it's always the same I really worry if we're getting enough fast enough

[00:09:52] to actually sort of sort of sort of sort of some things out. I think what you're saying what I see in in my 30 years in this space has been a more complex so in England I've been saying obviously

[00:10:06] internationally so I do work internationally I get to that bit in a while but there are some countries that are very proactive and some countries that are reactive and I have seen in England

[00:10:16] and more kind of better understanding of how children get you know are harmed by people around them etc etc and also the internet and online etc. people posing as friends or whatever so what I have seen is more awareness and an innocence of understanding how it can happen

[00:10:36] and because of that about to your point I feel that with austerity so in my social work roles in managing social workers and schools and managing social from the front line I used to

[00:10:50] manage a team of family support workers social worker systems and social workers so when the austerity kicked in obviously with the cutbacks we're having and the first thing to go was support services and answering your question now about the numbers I find that right now

[00:11:08] Child Protection Services tend to be very active and getting full when a beauty has happened or about to happen I you know the left hour kind of thing compared to many years ago we had the resources to do much more quicker sooner with it with the better outcome

[00:11:25] so I think I'm back to your after about job protection plans I feel that thresholds are very high for our colleagues outside of education outside of schools should I say hence outside of

[00:11:38] the children services and that's what I meant to say so yeah so thresholds are high for any professional referring to children services so whether it's health or education or the charity

[00:11:47] sector and I'm saying this particularly with an England I get this almost daily in the sense of people making you know even I did a training session about the language of referrals and thresholds

[00:11:58] of referrals the other day because settings are saying if I refer this you know five years ago it's gone in or even they're saying when I go to different counter-council local authority that

[00:12:09] would have been a threshold so we are still in that situation where across the country and across the world there is still an inconsistent understanding of child abuse so I'm understood let me

[00:12:19] add up yeah mention and ask you a opinion on it and to my mind no I mean it's a bit of a catch old but we do talk about something called complex safeguarding which essentially is this new landscape

[00:12:33] that we're all being forced into that is causing a lot of trouble to a lot of children and vulnerable adults and you mentioned the kind of the daddy of them all which of course is the internet

[00:12:47] and how that's being abused to the detriment of thousands of thousands of children and young people and also it's a different ways but as well as that we have not enough I don't think

[00:13:00] training within social work and the other front line protection agencies to deal with human trafficking slavery even domestic violence but all right forced marriage you know a lot of them were recognized contemporary they've been around for a while but you know what I mean like more

[00:13:20] kind of where more aware of these things now and the enormous numbers that it's affecting I don't think we're actually I've done several programs on this with with anti human trafficking people

[00:13:33] and you know it's really incredible I know as you say that I think in the last 18 months I've had very setting for I support them is safe public supervision or just case safe clothing

[00:13:44] kind of reflections and there's been a trend I say trend as in more than you know more than a few of when we do a denogram all then we do reflection or the timeline of a family or when they

[00:13:56] arrived how well she would have been or whatever it might have been I mean I have all the mum with a beam of shit the child and different relationships etc on a few of them we've seen that

[00:14:07] she would have been young at the time you know what country she came from the person was older than you know to me was the person's older than them or they had no relationship with her then

[00:14:17] had children so you're absolutely right there's been something where back to front when you have do the mass and workout with story we can now understand the story of how this is situation escalated to what it is. There's so many different fronts now for people to find specialise

[00:14:33] then it's becoming almost too many choices but I mean I did some work with professors at social work in China who are in the front line of training social workers to be first responders natural disasters

[00:14:50] because social work fits perfectly in what's happening right on the spot like other for me we don't do much of that even with Ukraine I'm remember when I Ukraine had to see

[00:15:03] years ago and I was asked by one of my colleagues he comes from these countries involved she was worried about when people were going to help that they would have been exactly that

[00:15:14] people to traffic kids you know like when they were just staying I'll take the children out of the country and I helped her with a campaign it was actually online um where we got things translated

[00:15:23] in different languages as well because we were aware that people who were supposed to be coming over and helping children with you know fully and going to other places were also vulnerable to

[00:15:35] being snatched by people and and taking in traffic and I remember that was a big issue so where the world would have seen something like um you know people are fleeing and cross-smoking organized crime yeah of course it was of course it was so you absolutely right

[00:15:50] so and I saw that in the school as well when I went to the school there were a few families at the setup as regular families but when you look at the backstory of some of these families

[00:15:59] and an amount of people that were coming through that home he were relatives or whether they're not relatives or whether it is people that were around it was just so interesting so you absolutely right I think there is more to be said about unknown people or people

[00:16:12] or people. Oh I can't imagine that when you're on there I mean look because there's a couple of programs not long ago that I've done one is with unseen if you know that that's the the leading UK anti-slavery charity basically very good and very informative worth a listen

[00:16:30] and the other one lots of time back at the beginning of the year of creating I did several from Ukraine but effectively one of them I did here was with the Bernardo's Ukrainian help line

[00:16:42] and they were saying it was fascinating you know I mean there's hundreds of youngsters who have come to the UK who have disappeared. I know no I know I know and some of them will have

[00:16:55] gone to watch the Manchester United there's only like that but many of them will literally be victims of organized crime. But we've always saw that so I found even a social work at the front

[00:17:06] line when children came over on a company and then they'd go missing so that was also seeing my soul then you know me so it's not new I think sometimes these these things happen and you know

[00:17:17] I've seen in different roles I've had in my very social work roles so yeah go back to the school let's pick up on that set because we've gotten make sure we get as much of your experience

[00:17:30] in. Okay what's it's all about the fact that you are independent and consultant and at the council of international schools and in that role you've been okay many minutes. So you want to talk about yeah yeah so at 60 years ago I was head-hunted not for the council

[00:17:49] of international schools but from um did you see 16? 16. 16. 16. Sorry I was in 16. 16. That's not really. 16. I was invited to go over to the UIE and deliver safe-binding training so I did that for a week and it was lovely I did lots of

[00:18:06] research about the UIE and then I looked into culture and stuff like that and then since then there was a law in the UIE called in divine the particular around where he does law and there's a young girl

[00:18:19] that was tortured by her father and then it and then became law in hence the name um and then from there there was another massive international case of a guy called William Pahi and he's working in American international schools where he was unfortunately a little health-warning taken advantage

[00:18:38] of his position of trust and abusing lots of children and then they realized that he'd been a convicted sex offender in the 60s but never declared it and then went around the world

[00:18:48] continuing his arm so with that what's happened then was I then got inundated with um requests from people to understand child protection, safe recruitment, international etc and then I then had a position where I went forth and um when and I said since 2016 I've been working I've been

[00:19:08] on the book should I say of the council of international schools where I'm affiliated, safe-� any consultant which means any CIS hence the abbreviation of it international school or member can request me and I'm I come recommended so I visited lots of countries the UIE

[00:19:25] lots of times this year have done seven countries um I've done I do money coes I've been doing a project in Monaco since 2021 I go back for two or three times a year I've done Geneva

[00:19:37] I've done Closterica, Portugal, the Gambia, Paris um yeah and they were all they were all face-to-face obviously with COVID I went online I've done Japan I've done and Singapore I've done you know Norway

[00:19:55] lots of places so do you make a spoke of conference in Jamaica so some of them you've have done Jamaica I love I say have done as in spoke at the event there's when I

[00:20:06] have done I mean I've been there and done in the event that's my that's my definition of have done then because on my list I've got other countries that I'd like to do so hence my done

[00:20:14] and then get me wrong some of them are repeated so I've done um I spoke a few times at in the UIE at public conferences talk about safe learning but also I've delivered training

[00:20:24] some people use me for all this as well and I go into to you know measure the sort of safe clinical clients or I get I'm a troubleshooter people come to me even things have gone wrong

[00:20:35] and want me support in resolving that so even today I want that's important and I think this is the moment to say before I forget that don't worry on the front sheet of this podcast on front page

[00:20:46] and the text every link that you want will be put there for your own web sites or your information, audio and touch it wherever you want will be put on the front page. Thank you.

[00:21:00] So, Bob I'm thank you thank you and and also I always say childhood boosts are not the scribbinaite so I really want to make this clear for all the listeners that we're so you are

[00:21:11] from any walk of life, any gender, any any any person, any religion, any any any any any class or cast, whatever it can happen anywhere so just so make that clear if I've worked in very

[00:21:25] very high level countries of wealth to when I did my work in the Gambia recently in May doing some work in the community school to do my high level international schools at a

[00:21:36] high degree paying. I've not eaten as well and in that I have seen sometimes the barriers all the taboo subjects about talking about you know you know for health falling again talking about harm being done to people by other people there's a big campaign in the world about

[00:21:52] violence against women and girls but we have to remember of course that is a massive and you know relevant kind of campaign that we need to champion but there's also choice are children too so

[00:22:04] some countries you know we do see boys being dismissed from abuse I you know will have to be more protected over girls not boys and not realising that boys can also be subject to harm so

[00:22:15] people who book me now when I'm a bit of a I pivot people good they know that I like I yeah but tell me this tell me this before we go on any further. I mean I when I was in social

[00:22:27] where when I was even chair of British Association social workers you know I'm trying to sort of push it at a national level I always thought that there was no problem whatsoever in stealing from the neighbors and actually looking through the ground Europe for good ideas projects whatever

[00:22:45] you know that we could adapt or adopt or whatever and I can't believe that it's not the same education so I mean have you seen things that you really think would be quite good to try out here

[00:22:58] in the UK. So internationally it's interesting this is fact by the way what I'm going to tell you now it's not my opinion in the world there's the two countries that are more proactive

[00:23:09] in the sense of owning it talking about it before it goes wrong we're just highlighting a full of concern would be Australia and in England okay so we know that in England you mean

[00:23:21] there's a lot of them in the UK yeah I was saying England yeah because everything got got to Scotland and Wales something thinking about our like for example key for children's

[00:23:28] safe and education is a guidance to DFE and it's England and Wales so some of it is the UK some of it is only England that's what I've seen in it in this because don't forget Scotland and

[00:23:38] Wales have got their own rules of answer backing which is absolutely right. So we're doing that up yeah and now that's fine so I have seen so you know we've got the sexual the sexual behavior toolkit

[00:23:48] for example that we use a lot in the UK book user and we've got that from Australia so we've adjusted it from Australia but at the same time you know we are also doing things like you know

[00:24:00] NSPCC have got adverts on the radio they've got them on the TV so we're reading your rooms in your houses when it comes to talk about a very you know hidden form of abuse in a sense of

[00:24:10] topic so just what I say that in the sense of we in the UK are for example we won the first countries to have the online safety act 2023 you know a lot of other countries in Europe for around the

[00:24:25] world are doing some similar things so there's lots of things like we you know we were hence at the moment with the government but we were just about to finalize the details of the introduction of you know reporting making reporting of child sexual abuse mandatory based on the

[00:24:44] inquiry to child sexual abuse that was definitely a fault that they saw that they felt that there was multiple missed opportunities in every sector so therefore they wanted to ensure that there's a mandatory like FGM reporting for example so at the moment it's put on hold because

[00:24:57] of government but the point I'm making is you know that's something else so we are very upfront well yeah we are upfront but there's a consequence you sometimes I mean let me explain back in

[00:25:09] period you were talking about originally which was like the late 90s I was very privileged to work with Baroness Lucy Faithful in the House of Lords to to in creating an advocating for what

[00:25:21] became the 1998 sexual fencing act which created the register of offenders which was a good thing still work but also the second half of that is been appalling which was the international aspect of it in which the British courts were given the authority to prosecute British people who had

[00:25:46] a fake committee defences in other countries where they haven't been prosecuted by the other country yeah and that's I mean most most European and other industrialized countries kind of adopted similar stuff and have gone streets ahead of us in terms of the number of prosecutions

[00:26:07] and I just so I think that's a terrible disappointment and it sort of figured into the whole international perception that you were going to be so in the key to disay for education there is a

[00:26:17] part there for teachers only that if they if they were involved in something in a country that for example in that country was was legal but it was illegal in our country then when you

[00:26:32] come back to England that would you know you'd be you'd be referred into the police so I mentioned to pan for example it's not the case anymore but the age of consent was 13 yeah so you know

[00:26:45] they're all yeah yeah so now that's changed to 16 but the point I'm making is you know that's an example of anyone who thinks they'd come back and start from scratch but that would

[00:26:55] that would follow them so it used to be the case that it certainly the age of consent in Spain was 12 yeah I mean and to be honest I think the Vatican was still pretty young

[00:27:06] yeah and so on anyway I mean just sorry interrupted you but the main thing is we're don't maybe the last five six minutes or so okay okay okay okay and then you want to

[00:27:16] do you want to really bang a drum on yeah say for an election what what any promises that you've heard or things that you haven't heard I think it goes back to you know the reform hence I mentioned

[00:27:28] already the mandatory reporting of the chocolate chip use was got to happen with that I'd be I'd want to know about just the funding of social care for children and for adults and also the

[00:27:36] one-cheous sector so in helping people at the cost of living or you know the COVID hangover of mental health stress and anxiety is domestic abuse for example like he said you know are we

[00:27:48] getting an underreporting of things or have we not got the resources to actually max out so I definitely would hope that in us understanding that the austerity definitely was failing the country in the last decade also I hope that whoever you know understands the country would do

[00:28:06] something where we can get that support in expand our services you know make accessible to all and again under quality at 2010 we've seen an increase of you know people who have no

[00:28:17] a divergent to LGBT to our black and brown people so there is a lot around ensuring that as a country an inclusive country and again anyone abroad with similar principles of ensuring that

[00:28:30] you know anyone got a right to be protected and kept safe and I really you know final words would be in my international work I kind of really encourage people to if you work in an organisation

[00:28:43] and you won't change you you can make your policies set that framework what about you should be somebody mentioned about having a mental health specialist in every school again it's a much social work at school that was something where they tried to do preventative

[00:28:58] services at the moment there is actually a mental health leading school so again there was a green paper many years ago looking at none of the tiers of camps and access to kind of charge

[00:29:07] and mental health services and they felt it was too high so as a result they kind of made it more accessible at a lower level and because of the increase of a referral to camps that you know

[00:29:17] for counselling services they've been in the higher level but also the long waitingness for also the increase with seeing of children not coping or adults there's definitely a need for accessibility and there's you know for example mental health leads that some of them are in house some of

[00:29:32] them come from external agencies where they are trained to know and tree origin refer in so that could only be a good thing but we have got something already like that but the differences it will

[00:29:43] be a standalone person like a designated safeguarding lead is someone who is a senior leader who is a assistant head or whatever it will head who does their day job as well as a safeguarding

[00:29:56] lead so the mental health lead is the same that would be someone who's got a regular job that also on the other side has to also do mental health so I think the person who's saying

[00:30:07] there's been meaning there'll be a dedicated person specialist rather than someone who's just done two day training all training for you understand yeah yeah well look I mean it's been a pleasure talking to you it's gone so quickly I know it has definitely people listening actually

[00:30:23] is the interestingly you mentioned a lot of domestic abuse there towards the end of the last two guests have had in the program are both authors of books on domestic abuse and been fantastically

[00:30:34] received so anybody listening wants to sort of link in with what Anne Marie's been talking about there's these two programs as well who just preceded her so Anne Marie I'm so pleased that you

[00:30:47] consent to come and talk I hope people have got quite a bit I have about what you were saying and I hope that some of the doom and gloom that we all feel at the moment to do with the election

[00:31:01] and people playing party politics doesn't impact too much on the vulnerable again as many years it has done but we hope that the optimism still hangs around and thanks over so much and as I said

[00:31:14] people want to get in touch to you people want to talk to you people want to look at your website all the stuff will be on the front thank you the podcast thank you very much appreciate that

[00:31:23] for being on the program now problem thank you David look forward to the next one okay you will thank you