160 Dr Craig Newman, author, recovery from abuse programme.

[00:00:01] David Niven, Social Work Expert

[00:00:41] David Niven, Social Work Expert

[00:01:11] David Niven, Social Work Expert

[00:01:41] David Niven, Social Work Expert

[00:02:11] David Niven, Social Work Expert

[00:02:41] David Niven, Social Work Expert

[00:03:11] David Niven, Social Work Expert

[00:03:41] David Niven, Social Work Expert

[00:04:11] David Niven, Social Work Expert

[00:04:41] David Niven, Social Work Expert

[00:05:11] David Niven, Social Work Expert

[00:05:41] David Niven, Social Work Expert

[00:06:11] David Niven, Social Work Expert

[00:06:41] David Niven, Social Work Expert

[00:07:11] David Niven, Social Work Expert

[00:07:41] David Niven, Social Work Expert

[00:08:11] David Niven, Social Work Expert

[00:08:41] David Niven, Social Work Expert

[00:09:11] David Niven, Social Work Expert

[00:09:41] David Niven, Social Work Expert

[00:10:11] David Niven, Social Work Expert

[00:10:41] David Niven, Social Work Expert

[00:11:11] David Niven, Social Work Expert

[00:11:41] David Niven, Social Work Expert

[00:12:11] David Niven, Social Work Expert

[00:12:41] David Niven, Social Work Expert

[00:13:11] David Niven, Social Work Expert

[00:13:41] David Niven, Social Work Expert

[00:14:11] David Niven, Social Work Expert

[00:14:41] David Niven, Social Work Expert

[00:15:11] David Niven, Social Work Expert

[00:15:13] David Niven, Social Work Expert

[00:15:41] David Niven, Social Work Expert

[00:16:11] people realize that in the background, I think we talk a little bit about the program. Could

[00:16:15] you just a bit about how people might actually come across it, but how they might begin to

[00:16:24] use it?

[00:16:25] I mean, I'll tell you what, I mean, the program itself, I mean, it's called Get

[00:16:29] Out, Get Love because it was the shortest summary I could think about that captures

[00:16:33] really what it includes. And the program is kind of three step as much as you

[00:16:39] can say three step, but it really imagines that people need support for six to 12

[00:16:42] months. And by that support, I mean something they deliver for themselves.

[00:16:46] It's paced around how much time they can give it and how quickly they want to

[00:16:51] address their own recovery. That includes people getting a very deep

[00:16:55] understanding of why they fell for their abuser, why they stayed and why

[00:16:59] they tolerated that abuse and ultimately why it's so difficult to leave

[00:17:02] and why we leave and why after leaving, it's so confusing to make sense

[00:17:06] of that. With that confusion, that whole story of unanswered questions,

[00:17:11] people are really, people can really struggle to understand what they went

[00:17:15] through. And that's one of the biggest risks really in terms of going back.

[00:17:18] They can, there's a real risk that they misunderstand some of the drama

[00:17:22] cycle bonds and pulls that we have to that previous lifestyle as love.

[00:17:28] And so people really can find themselves pulled back in a desperate

[00:17:32] storm to their previous abuse. And so the second feature of the programme

[00:17:36] is helping people to understand those emotions and regulate them.

[00:17:40] And then the reason it's called Get Love is because we really move into

[00:17:44] them thinking about the psychological traits that enable us to stay away

[00:17:48] from abuse, self-worth, meeting our own needs, getting closure on our

[00:17:53] ex. And I've really summarised that as Get Love for two reasons.

[00:17:57] One, because I don't think I've ever heard the word love used in all

[00:18:01] of my clinical training, which is fantastic given how much we use it in our

[00:18:04] day to day lives. And second, to really recognise that we fall

[00:18:08] in love with abusers at some point and we're going to need something

[00:18:13] to replace that. And it's an internally sourced equivalent.

[00:18:17] It's love from ourselves to ourselves. And people can access the programme.

[00:18:21] I realise that's the question you asked either by getting the book.

[00:18:25] Some people might prefer to read that. One of the hazards of that is you

[00:18:28] read it very quickly and you never pick it up again.

[00:18:30] And the book really promotes a very slow process.

[00:18:34] Or the other version is to access our digital programme at our website.

[00:18:39] Anybody can go to that and they can access it themselves.

[00:18:42] There is a payment, but we've tried to make that very affordable.

[00:18:45] Some regions in the UK are starting to purchase it through domestic

[00:18:49] abuse services where actually in that region they can access it for free.

[00:18:54] And it's just kind of like almost like this, a bit of a podcast experience.

[00:18:58] You just listen to it when you feel you've got the time or when you're

[00:19:01] ready to and there are journaling exercises and also there are, you know,

[00:19:06] other self care exercises for people who are struggling.

[00:19:09] It's incredibly difficult, isn't it?

[00:19:12] It must be. And you've obviously realised that as part of your

[00:19:15] kind of the programme to get people to love themselves,

[00:19:21] to get people to actually think that they're worth something after

[00:19:26] suffering horrific kind of years in many cases of being

[00:19:31] degraded, of being put down or being told they're stupid or whatever.

[00:19:35] And then and nobody likes them or nobody loves them or whatever.

[00:19:40] And now suddenly to actually try and ignite

[00:19:43] this kind of feeling of worth and self love.

[00:19:48] I can imagine it's very, very difficult.

[00:19:50] And it's very good that you're getting positive feedback about it.

[00:19:53] But I imagine it was a difficult process to try and actually

[00:19:58] explain in writing to people.

[00:20:02] Yeah, I mean, the process of writing the book for me was,

[00:20:06] you know, was incredibly emotionally challenging.

[00:20:09] So going back years later to produce this programme was,

[00:20:12] you know, a very deep emotional journey.

[00:20:15] So there's as much of kind of revealing

[00:20:18] how hard that is emotionally as there is psychological theory and examples

[00:20:22] of people who have taken that journey.

[00:20:25] And it was interesting, you know, because I still work in this space

[00:20:28] as a therapist as well to really remain authentic,

[00:20:32] I guess, and to keep my skills being updated.

[00:20:36] And I had a recent client who said to me, you know,

[00:20:40] it wasn't until they got to the third act of the book

[00:20:44] and I make a statement where I defined and I define things

[00:20:48] many ways because I know that, you know, we need many ways of description

[00:20:52] for people to realise.

[00:20:53] But she said until I'd read that line in your book,

[00:20:55] and I think it was something about, you know, the self love,

[00:20:59] it involves a kind of ability to automatically meet your own needs

[00:21:04] as a priority.

[00:21:05] She said I'd never actually had a concept of what it was.

[00:21:08] When I read that, she said, I realised I've never done that.

[00:21:13] I've never met my own needs before anyone else's.

[00:21:17] So I think that the biggest challenge is getting people

[00:21:21] to even identify what this gap is and that it is a gap.

[00:21:25] Because for many of us, you know, we just fall into ways

[00:21:28] in which we meet our needs.

[00:21:29] And some of those ways, you know, they can feel functional,

[00:21:33] like rescuing others and turning up for others

[00:21:35] and really trying to be wholly helpful to the world.

[00:21:38] But if that's at the cost of all of our own needs,

[00:21:41] we are actually missing one of the primary needs that we have,

[00:21:44] which is to give to ourselves, to enable us to sustain that

[00:21:49] and to avoid abuse.

[00:21:51] The different layers of

[00:21:55] trauma that people have to suffer, I mean, on one hand,

[00:21:59] it's just sort of straightforward kind of emotional baggage

[00:22:03] that they have to kind of deal with at their partner or whoever it is

[00:22:06] that the abuser is actually putting on them all the time.

[00:22:10] But right through to some horrific kind of stories

[00:22:13] you hear that impact on in families, for example,

[00:22:17] impact on the rest of the family, the children, for example,

[00:22:21] who have to witness this kind of caught in the crossfire all the time,

[00:22:26] you know, who won't have access necessarily to your book

[00:22:29] and may well just be too young or whatever.

[00:22:31] But I mean, all the actual ancillary kind of casualties

[00:22:36] that go with domestic violence, it's a huge subject, isn't it?

[00:22:43] Yeah, I mean, it's when you when you start to look at the size of it,

[00:22:47] you can feel there's a risk of feeling paralysed about where to start.

[00:22:53] And I do work with lots of mothers and fathers.

[00:22:56] And, you know, one of the greatest needs for a child is to have

[00:23:03] a stable parent, is to have the ability or even the chance

[00:23:06] to form a secure attachment.

[00:23:08] And one of the reassurances I give to parents,

[00:23:13] I mean, this is one of the challenges we get with a lot of people

[00:23:16] that I see is they really trying to put their children first,

[00:23:20] but they're not actually witnessing that their own emotional chaos

[00:23:24] and trauma and risk of going back to abusers or inviting new abusers

[00:23:28] is one of the main risks for their children.

[00:23:31] And so trying to get people to recognize that meeting their own need,

[00:23:35] even in the context of a very challenging co-parenting relationship

[00:23:39] with perhaps an abusive ex, meeting their own ability

[00:23:42] to find some sense of recovery, to get closure on the past

[00:23:45] and to start not only practicing the approaches

[00:23:50] that are what I would call self-love,

[00:23:53] but modeling that ability to their children

[00:23:56] is probably one of the biggest steps towards, you know,

[00:23:59] reducing those adverse experiences for children.

[00:24:02] It's quite a common thing, isn't it, that the abused parent,

[00:24:08] you know, effectively comes to the conclusion

[00:24:10] that they've got to put the children first,

[00:24:12] but to do that, they must sacrifice themselves.

[00:24:16] Yeah, I mean, it's our instinct for all of us

[00:24:20] to put our children first.

[00:24:23] And if you've come out of a domestic abuse relationship,

[00:24:27] you will have been schooled and psychologically shaped

[00:24:29] to serve the needs of other people

[00:24:32] and probably, you know, will have taken the blame,

[00:24:34] have been ridiculed on most of your attempts to do most things.

[00:24:38] And that really, as I said at the start,

[00:24:40] sabotages your own trust in yourself.

[00:24:43] You don't have that trust in yourself

[00:24:44] that you can do right for your children.

[00:24:48] You know, that's a very difficult starting point.

[00:24:50] And so you're right.

[00:24:51] What happens is there's an instinct to give children

[00:24:55] everything they might need without a real compass

[00:24:58] for what that is, because you're not even developing

[00:25:01] that within yourself.

[00:25:03] And so I think for parents, it's trying to,

[00:25:08] even if it's small moments in their day,

[00:25:10] to support them to realize, you know,

[00:25:13] there are periods where for you to be able

[00:25:15] to turn up for your child,

[00:25:16] you have to have turned up for yourself at some point.

[00:25:19] And that's what we really encourage in the program

[00:25:21] with children or without, in fact,

[00:25:24] that recovery starts with supporting yourself first.

[00:25:28] Oh, I think that's very true thing you've just said there.

[00:25:30] I mean, if you are humiliated, beat down, scared,

[00:25:34] I mean, part of the whole inception,

[00:25:39] if you like, of the problem is actually finding

[00:25:41] that small kernel of hope or a small kernel of resistance

[00:25:47] in the person that the therapist or others

[00:25:49] can begin to actually help grow.

[00:25:53] It's so difficult finding that place to start sometimes,

[00:25:56] isn't it?

[00:25:58] I think my, you know, one of the drivers for me,

[00:26:02] is it a worry?

[00:26:03] It might be a worry in me.

[00:26:04] Certainly an awareness I have is that

[00:26:07] there are potentially millions of people

[00:26:10] who have experienced abuse that has been coercive

[00:26:14] and manipulative and potentially violent

[00:26:18] who would not label themselves

[00:26:20] of having experienced that,

[00:26:21] would not ever have considered that that was bad enough

[00:26:24] to think that they were a victim.

[00:26:25] And I'm not saying that because there's a,

[00:26:28] you know, everyone should consider they're a victim.

[00:26:30] But when we recognize that we have been victim

[00:26:33] to something that is quite so impactful as domestic abuse,

[00:26:38] you know, we want others when we see that

[00:26:40] to have had support and to be helped to recover.

[00:26:44] If we don't see that in ourselves, we don't.

[00:26:46] And I think there are many, many people,

[00:26:48] I know this from my own practice,

[00:26:49] that there are just so many people that I work with

[00:26:51] who you can see the emotional scars they've got

[00:26:54] really attached to a relational experience they've had.

[00:26:59] And I've worked with clinical psychologists,

[00:27:00] you know, who equivalent professionals to myself,

[00:27:04] where we've come to realize that a real struggle

[00:27:07] they've had for maybe a decade lies

[00:27:09] in a substantive abusive relationship they had in the past.

[00:27:13] But the way they describe it is more

[00:27:16] that it was a difficult relationship,

[00:27:17] that this person was hard to please.

[00:27:20] Maybe they'll go for us to say it's toxic.

[00:27:23] And when they leave, you know,

[00:27:24] there's a kind of sense that,

[00:27:26] okay, well, that's the job done.

[00:27:28] And unfortunately, you know,

[00:27:31] unless we actively understand that,

[00:27:33] when we actively seek to repair it,

[00:27:36] you know, we carry scars and those scars,

[00:27:38] you know, they come out in many ways.

[00:27:40] So I think that the,

[00:27:42] what you're talking about kind of accessing the support,

[00:27:44] I think one of the biggest challenges

[00:27:46] is recognizing you need it.

[00:27:48] And that's one of the aspirations

[00:27:50] of what I'm doing really.

[00:27:53] Let's talk just practically just for a moment or two,

[00:27:56] because we're coming to the last sort of five minutes

[00:27:58] if you like,

[00:27:59] but I just wanted to make sure

[00:28:00] that people realize that the book,

[00:28:04] Get Out, Get Love is with Jessica Kingsley

[00:28:08] and published as I said,

[00:28:11] the details about how to get it,

[00:28:13] I presume we'll be putting on the front

[00:28:15] of the podcast for people.

[00:28:17] Yep.

[00:28:19] I know that you, who you've encouraged to take it,

[00:28:23] but hopefully some more people will see and understand

[00:28:26] have a look and want it themselves now.

[00:28:28] I guess that support groups too are an ideal place

[00:28:33] for this book to be shown to people.

[00:28:37] So, I mean, in terms of,

[00:28:39] you said early on partly because you got COVID,

[00:28:43] but also whatever else was going on,

[00:28:45] that it's only really gathering momentum now

[00:28:48] the marketing side of this,

[00:28:50] getting this book in front of people.

[00:28:53] What other things would help?

[00:28:56] So one of the things that surprises me the most

[00:28:59] about this book is how many people pass it on.

[00:29:04] Partly because I don't think I really,

[00:29:05] I'm so precious about my own book collection.

[00:29:08] There's not many books I've passed on,

[00:29:10] but I get regular feedback from a person

[00:29:13] who's read it for their own needs.

[00:29:15] And then, whoever they've given it to write saying,

[00:29:18] I got given this book because I had had an experience

[00:29:22] that my friend thought this would help with.

[00:29:25] So I think that when I meet charities now

[00:29:28] and I'm not sure how many charities really imagine

[00:29:31] this is a real thing,

[00:29:32] but I say to them, look, the book is an intervention.

[00:29:35] That might sound very strange,

[00:29:37] but I wrote a book that I thought I should have read

[00:29:41] sometime in my past.

[00:29:43] And that's how it's written.

[00:29:45] And I'm pretty persuasive person.

[00:29:47] I've spent many years as a therapist

[00:29:49] trying to help people to understand how to recover.

[00:29:51] And I was like, if I needed to be persuaded

[00:29:54] to see reality and look after myself,

[00:29:56] this is what I wrote.

[00:29:58] So I guess what I'd like to see is organizations

[00:30:02] that are working with people

[00:30:03] and they don't just have to be people

[00:30:05] who have self-disclosed

[00:30:06] as having experienced domestic abuse.

[00:30:08] And we're seeing that I should have,

[00:30:10] we've got people commissioning the book and the program

[00:30:12] who are not domestic abuse services.

[00:30:14] They are supporting families

[00:30:15] or they're supporting people with mental health.

[00:30:18] It's a book that, you know,

[00:30:19] the beauty of a book is it's not quite threatening.

[00:30:22] It's having to phone a helpline

[00:30:24] or having to tell your GP.

[00:30:25] You can pick it up, you know,

[00:30:26] and within a few chapters,

[00:30:27] you're going to know if it's speaking to you.

[00:30:29] And I think that that's what I'm calling out

[00:30:31] for as services or professionals

[00:30:33] or even individuals that might know others

[00:30:36] that might benefit from asking questions

[00:30:38] about their current or past life

[00:30:40] that they might recommend it to them.

[00:30:42] That's really what I was partly trying to get to

[00:30:46] who you might shout out to.

[00:30:47] But Luke, the last couple of minutes,

[00:30:50] why don't we let it be a case of you talking to people?

[00:30:53] Imagine people listening to the program.

[00:30:57] Some are in abusive relationships.

[00:30:59] Some work with people in abusive relationships

[00:31:03] and others are just plain interested

[00:31:04] because they haven't come across,

[00:31:06] if you like, a tool like this,

[00:31:09] maybe so obviously before for them.

[00:31:12] What would you just like to say

[00:31:13] to these groups of people

[00:31:14] just in a minute or two, Craig, if you would?

[00:31:17] I think that the domestic abuse world

[00:31:20] is littered with images of people who have been hit

[00:31:23] and people who have suffered the worst consequences.

[00:31:27] And even the idea of what it means

[00:31:29] to leave domestic abuse seems to be,

[00:31:32] there's a dominant perspective that you get help,

[00:31:34] you escape, and there's some sort of therapy before,

[00:31:37] you know, you eventually settle into a home.

[00:31:39] I guess what I perceive as missing is

[00:31:42] there's a big story that could be told

[00:31:46] about people who go on and they recover

[00:31:49] and they have incredibly successful lives

[00:31:51] and they feel happy

[00:31:53] and they don't regret the decisions they've made.

[00:31:55] They understand the experience they had in the past

[00:31:59] and they've learned how to part the emotions from it

[00:32:01] and they are very invested in having a life in the future

[00:32:05] where they meet their own needs

[00:32:07] and within that will be meeting

[00:32:08] the needs of people they love.

[00:32:10] But that's always a choice.

[00:32:11] It won't be meeting people out of any sense

[00:32:13] of desperate need to be loved back.

[00:32:15] That story, I really want to shout out

[00:32:18] to people who are in abuse

[00:32:20] and maybe think there's no future out of it

[00:32:22] or people who've escaped

[00:32:23] and are really feeling very desperate and down,

[00:32:25] but also to people who work in domestic abuse services

[00:32:29] that see people, they support them through crisis

[00:32:32] and then they let them go

[00:32:33] what really is too soon due to the resources.

[00:32:35] There is actually somewhere you can go

[00:32:38] where you can be supported

[00:32:39] to achieve that much brighter sense of a future.

[00:32:43] Well, thanks, Greg.

[00:32:44] It's often fear.

[00:32:44] I remember way back in practice myself,

[00:32:48] the terrible fear that people

[00:32:51] in abusive relationships had

[00:32:53] about what the prospect of leaving meant,

[00:32:56] all the practicalities of money,

[00:32:58] of housing, of children, of schools,

[00:33:00] of doing things for yourself all the time,

[00:33:02] of actually supporting things.

[00:33:04] And apart from everything

[00:33:05] that was going in between your ears,

[00:33:07] it was a real terrifying prospect to lots of people.

[00:33:11] And I still think it is,

[00:33:13] although things are a little bit better now

[00:33:15] in terms of when people are being received and helped.

[00:33:18] But generally speaking,

[00:33:20] I think we need Get Out, Get Love.

[00:33:23] We need that book.

[00:33:24] And I hope that people will pick it up

[00:33:26] after hearing this and spread the word

[00:33:28] and send it around and let people,

[00:33:31] other people see about it and hear about it.

[00:33:34] But anyway, Luke, for now,

[00:33:36] Dr. Craig Newman, thank you.

[00:33:38] Thank you very much, David.

[00:33:40] To have you on the program.

[00:33:41] And I wish you very well

[00:33:43] and all the best for the future.

[00:33:46] Thank you.

[00:33:47] I feel very privileged to be invited.