157 Unseen, the Leading UK Anti-Slavery Charity

[00:00:00] Well, welcome back to the Social World Podcast. Thoughts On The Social World is what you

[00:00:18] do Google. I'm Dave Niven and as usual it's a delight to have you along at the program

[00:00:24] and today another issue to do with safeguarding another excellent guest and another UK company

[00:00:32] this time Charity Unseen. And today I'm going to be talking to Andrew Wallace OBE who

[00:00:39] is the CEO of Unseen, they're based in the West Country and they are the predominant charity

[00:00:46] working against slavery in the UK now welcome Andrew to the program.

[00:00:52] David very good to meet you and delighted to be here. Good well look I mean just give us a quick

[00:00:59] couple of moments about a kind of a main the main focus of Unseen if you would not necessarily

[00:01:04] the entire history because we're going to be putting everything on the front page of the podcast

[00:01:09] all your links or your contacts or your history but but how you see it today because you've

[00:01:14] been around quite some time what would you say the main focus today is of Unseen?

[00:01:19] So we are in our sixth year as a charity. We do a number of things so we work directly with

[00:01:29] victims of trafficking and modern slavery that are identified in the United Kingdom through what's

[00:01:35] called the National Referral Mechanism. We also work with all the major statically agencies so

[00:01:42] that's everything from national primary agency and border force at national and international

[00:01:47] all the way down to police forces, local government health, social services,

[00:01:55] PTCs across the UK. We also operate the UK's modern slavery and exploitation helplines since

[00:02:04] 2016 we stood there up in 2016 that's a 24-7365 operation which will put on the front page of

[00:02:12] this podcast. All details like that to contact. Yeah right. And then we also work with businesses

[00:02:20] helping them tackle force labor issues in their supply chains and business practices. We then

[00:02:25] carry out policy and research based on all of that sort of frontline work that we do and then we

[00:02:31] work and try and work with governments around the world advising them on legislation and policy

[00:02:37] and practice. So, what are you doing in the afternoon? Well that was Monday and then I take the rest of

[00:02:45] the week off. It sounds enormously kind of involved. I mean have you got a large staff?

[00:02:55] So we are nearly about 100 people. It's a complex beast because you have differing and

[00:03:03] competing priorities and mindsets within the same organisation. So that takes a little bit of

[00:03:08] sort of juggling and holding. Obviously my colleagues that work both on our frontline

[00:03:16] operations with victims of trafficking and the helpline are very much geared towards the support

[00:03:24] and the help that either callers or individuals need as a result of their experience in modern

[00:03:32] favourites. Whereas my colleagues at work with businesses are very much more commercially

[00:03:38] attuned and working within the private sector and then the skills around developing policy

[00:03:44] and research again as a different mix and trying to sort of in our minds they do fit together

[00:03:52] but often people know unseen for different things and that's okay but for us it's important

[00:03:58] to do all of it because what we're trying to do and this is our sort of mission statement which

[00:04:02] is to put ourselves out in business or in other language believing that we can have a world

[00:04:09] that can operate and survive and thrive without need for modern slavery. I think that it's

[00:04:16] laudable that you're trying to put yourself out of business but I rather suspect you would

[00:04:20] agree with me that it's unlikely for a long time to come. I both agree and disagree. I think

[00:04:28] it is achievable within a generation so 40 years so maybe we're a quarter of the way in

[00:04:36] but our conviction is it needs a whole of society response and you know a lot of what we're trying

[00:04:43] to do is to take our frontline experience and explain the real-life impact of this surge of

[00:04:51] modern slavery in order to affect some systemic changes and societal changes that need to take place

[00:04:59] because modern slavery only exists because there's a demand for it and that's the demand for

[00:05:04] cheap labour, cheap services and cheap goods and unfortunately we have an ever growing supply

[00:05:12] of vulnerable people that get deceived and sucked into this exposure to glass style.

[00:05:19] Do you think I mean what would be your judgment as to I mean that you can't be I know

[00:05:23] a specific but you have got an idea probably in terms of the trajectory

[00:05:28] do you feel that awareness raising is improving within so let's start with the UK?

[00:05:35] I think if we were to look back 10 years ago, 11 years ago, back then I

[00:05:46] drew the centre for such a justice. I chaired a report that was published in 2013 that said look

[00:05:52] this is the nature and scale of modern slavery in the UK and that became the catalyst for the

[00:05:59] modern slavery act and back then you had very periodic stories about modern slavery appearing in

[00:06:06] the media if you were to do a poll or a Vox pop on the streets of anywhere in the UK you would have

[00:06:15] had a variety of answers none of which was correct. I think that has changed to some degree

[00:06:22] and if you look at Google analytics in terms of searches around the issue of modern slavery

[00:06:34] in human trafficking in the 10 years since then it is on an upward trajectory but I think the

[00:06:40] thing for me is more and this is a podcast about safeguarding is actually do the right people

[00:06:49] and at sufficient levels know about what modern slavery is how it presents, what the indicators are

[00:06:55] and then what to do and we're not there yet I can't say hand on heart does every police officer

[00:07:01] the length of Brexit in the UK know what modern slavery is the clear answer is no because we get calls

[00:07:07] on the helpline from police officers going I've got somebody in front of me that says they're a victim

[00:07:12] of trafficking or modern slavery what do I do? Our social workers trained to know what modern slavery is

[00:07:21] no about 10 years ago we one of our key recommendations was that all social workers should be trained

[00:07:29] on their degree courses to know what modern slavery is and what to do that still hasn't happened

[00:07:35] so yeah there's still a body of work to do in order to say those key frontline professionals that are

[00:07:43] but yeah if we look at the statistics are finding the vast majority of victims still

[00:07:49] we still have a low level of understanding of what modern slavery is how it manifests and what to do.

[00:07:54] Okay well here's the thing and I want to see hear your thoughts on this I mean my career is mainly

[00:08:01] to do a child exploitation in the past and if you look at the figures maybe for the last couple of

[00:08:08] decades a number of children considered to be at risk by the people that actually are caring for them

[00:08:16] any one day you know you just put a pin on any one day of the year you'll find a figure hovering

[00:08:21] around a 50,000 mark and that figure has never changed for the last couple of decades but

[00:08:28] arguing put people do argue that's because lots of other people lots of people never coming forward

[00:08:35] and it still we're actually still flushing out the system as it were to put it crudely.

[00:08:40] Do you feel the same I mean especially when you actually look at things like which I've done

[00:08:45] the supply chain problems that companies and businesses have you know as soon as you make

[00:08:52] people aware you uncover more cases you uncover more situations do you feel that's accurate?

[00:09:01] Yes and I often get asked this question in terms of

[00:09:07] are we going forward is it getting worse or are we just becoming more aware of it

[00:09:14] and the problem is we've never really had a baseline and I almost think that's like the sort of

[00:09:19] the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow because how do you baseline a hidden crime?

[00:09:25] Absolutely so all we can do is look at the numbers that we do know and increasingly what we are

[00:09:34] saying are unseen is and let's also understand the economic impact of this crime yes horrendous human

[00:09:44] rights outcomes and human abuse for the individuals involved but let's go back 10 years the

[00:09:50] homophys said at any one time there were between 10 and 13,000 victims in the UK and they said

[00:09:59] the cost to UK PLC was around four billion pounds so you know that's the drag on UK PLC

[00:10:07] well now we estimate at any one time there's a 122,000 victims in the UK at any one time

[00:10:15] and taking into account inflation but also using the homophys

[00:10:20] maths well that's a drag on the UK PLC of 53 billion pounds

[00:10:27] there's a huge cost not just a personal cost but a huge economic cost to describe and you

[00:10:33] mentioned supply chains will globally now the estimate is of 50 million people in situations

[00:10:41] and models slavery of which 27 million are in what we call force labor and the majority of those

[00:10:46] are under world supply chains yeah and we now estimate that the profit from this illicit trade

[00:10:53] is about half a trillion dollars per annum and to put that into perspective that's somewhere between

[00:11:00] the seventh and the eighth of the UK's GDP every year but gives you an idea of the scale

[00:11:07] of the problem that we're dealing with no I think it is it's mind blowing isn't it but at the same

[00:11:14] time you know the very fact that we're actually identifying some numbers and you're actually still

[00:11:20] having more and more people coming forward that occupy your hundred staff continuously I suspect

[00:11:27] just give certain ideas I mean what what about offered do you offer training

[00:11:32] to agents yeah very much and that's yeah yeah I said earlier this is about a whole of society

[00:11:41] in response so I could get very grumpy and say well why you know why haven't these degree courses

[00:11:45] changed for social work it is in terms of training um you know we'll keep banging that drum but in

[00:11:51] the meantime we want to train social workers because you know whether it's children or adults

[00:11:57] they're the eyes and ears that are going to squat some of these people and they need to know

[00:12:00] how the right things to do so we've just got on with training in our training cpd accredited

[00:12:05] in order to train those front-mind professionals what to do but we're also training within businesses

[00:12:10] not only so that as a business they know what to do but also coming from the point of view

[00:12:15] that people that work in business are also members of society and the more people that are aware of

[00:12:21] what modern slave areas how it presents and know what to do even if it's as simple as just calling

[00:12:29] that the helpline and then you know allowing the experts to take over we see is absolutely critical

[00:12:34] to this um and the reason it's critical is and I think this is to you know spin it around 180 degrees

[00:12:43] the person that is holding a situation of exploitation they have no voice they they can't call out

[00:12:49] and signal that they need help and so they they need society to be aware of what the signs are

[00:12:56] and for society to do that very unbridges thing which is to speak out when they see something

[00:13:01] and to say um I think there's an there's an issue here and you know one way of looking at it is

[00:13:09] thankfully our call and contact volumes on the helpline go up by about 25 to 30 percent year on

[00:13:16] year so that message is slowly getting out but I'll be where you know have we hit the peak and

[00:13:20] we're coming down to other side because I don't know every year then numbers go up yeah and because

[00:13:26] organized crime are so involved as well it's a it's a lucrative trade to put it bluntly and

[00:13:33] always will be until it stopped to put it absolutely simply um I mean what about the financial side

[00:13:41] because I like I said to you I was talking to somebody who trains on financial crime and spotting

[00:13:48] signs and symptoms of people who are in distress and whatnot through the various banks and

[00:13:53] insurance companies and frontline the public facing staff and so forth they train them

[00:13:59] is that something that I mean do you overlap with that at all?

[00:14:03] Yes we do we work with with a number of the financial institutions and yes this this is an economic

[00:14:10] crime with horrendous human rights outcomes so you know again back to that half a trillion dollar

[00:14:16] profit figure yeah that money does eventually work its way through the financial systems

[00:14:22] Moody's came out yesterday and said you know across Europe that there was a significant uptick in terms

[00:14:29] of the numbers being found in situations with human trafficking in modern slavery and parallel

[00:14:34] with that there is the significant uptick in money laundering activity as well and it comes back

[00:14:43] to you know what do we mean by modern slavery? Well this is an technical definition but I think it

[00:14:50] helps sort of explain the economics of it which is modern slavery is an enistic commodity trade

[00:14:58] the commodities of human being and that human being is bought sold and exploited for the sole

[00:15:03] purposes of making money for their exploiter and why are people doing this because the chances

[00:15:10] of getting caught ledger learn prosecuted around the globe are less than 1%

[00:15:16] That staggering number isn't it? Okay yeah absolutely when I talk to one of your members of staff

[00:15:27] a couple of years back she talked to the fact that you did at that time run safe houses is that

[00:15:34] the still the sea it's still the case? Yep so we have a combination of safe houses and then

[00:15:41] what we call outreach so that's working with clients that are actually in their silent system

[00:15:48] are what is they're likely called historic cases so they've actually left their exploitation

[00:15:54] they are and have been living with friends family so from so from etc and all of that is through

[00:16:02] what's called the national referral mechanism so this is people that have been referred into support

[00:16:08] which is their entitled to under what's called eCAP the European Convention against trafficking

[00:16:13] and they are waiting for a decision to be made by the government which in essence is saying yes

[00:16:19] on now are you evict them of the crime of modern slavery? I talked I've talked to people who

[00:16:28] doing investigations into the supply street chain and some of our big companies they did say that

[00:16:35] one or two of them I want to name but one or two of them are pretty good but lots of them still

[00:16:40] really aren't grasping the nettle as it were because it either seems too complicated or it's

[00:16:45] going to cost them money or they don't see it as their business do you find sometimes that

[00:16:51] you're banging your head against a brick wall trying to persuade some of the larger institutions

[00:16:55] to take you both seriously and comprehensively? That's a great question and it is slightly

[00:17:04] multi-par answers so if we so section 54 of the modern slavery acts is any business with worldwide

[00:17:12] sales of more than 36 million pounds regardless of how much business you do in the UK

[00:17:18] should produce every year a in modern slavery statement if I look at something like TISC report.or

[00:17:25] which tracks these things of the 19,000 circa 19,000 companies that should be producing a statement

[00:17:34] we still have six six and a half thousand companies that haven't produced a statement so

[00:17:40] these companies are breaking the law. The question then becomes is well what's the penalty for not

[00:17:47] producing a statement and what the act says was that the home secretary can take those companies to

[00:17:53] court and force them to produce a statement and if they don't produce a statement then the fines

[00:17:58] are unlimited but the fines will be handed out by the courts. Now in the 700 home secretaries

[00:18:05] that we've had since 2015 not one of them has taken a single company to court and said you

[00:18:13] must produce this statement. Now meanwhile legislation has grown up around the world

[00:18:21] in following sort of the UK's lead and is becoming more punitive for companies and becoming

[00:18:28] more directive in terms of what companies must do and so I think that position of

[00:18:37] we can't take this seriously is being eroded rapidly and then on top of that the role of institutional

[00:18:45] investors and pension funds are increasingly concerned about this issue because they see it as

[00:18:52] not just a matter of human rights but also a matter of due diligence and their view is if

[00:18:58] a company is not taking an issue like modern slavery seriously what else is it not taking

[00:19:02] seriously and therefore why would we want to be invested in this company with this somewhat

[00:19:07] cavalier or inhumane approach. And so we've seen campaigns and by investors like Rathburns that

[00:19:19] have a major sort of office in Bristol and the CCLA again big institutional investors saying

[00:19:29] we will either there's one campaign called votes against slavery and another called Find It Fixed

[00:19:34] Repair it basically saying to businesses you must take this issue seriously because

[00:19:39] it's about the exploitation of human beings but also it's bound for business.

[00:19:45] And it's certainly is and it's this this brush up against criminality

[00:19:52] and actually you know most of the people that I know in business don't want that's not why

[00:19:57] they got into business so they didn't want to get into business in order to perpetuate

[00:20:02] modern slavery but I think sometimes there is we've tried this more carrot and stick approach

[00:20:10] and that hasn't worked and so actually what you're seeing now with legislation is it's going to be

[00:20:15] more more stick than carrot because the politicians and society are saying modern slavery is unacceptable

[00:20:20] and business you have a role in order to tackle these issues.

[00:20:26] One thing I was left with when I was talking to somebody else in this world if you like recently

[00:20:33] was why don't we call out any individual listening to this to go to their bank and demand to

[00:20:42] know what their policy is on slavery trafficking whatever and have they undergone any training

[00:20:47] and trained their staff and if so why not. I mean and with the issues that you've just raised

[00:20:53] and if you like or the context that you've just raised of the legislative aspect of it as well

[00:20:59] is that something in terms of your campaigns that you manage to try and you're calling people out

[00:21:05] as it were you're asking people to protest you're asking people to challenge. Is that a constant theme

[00:21:12] of unsewn? It's a little bit more nuanced and this partly is probably my background having

[00:21:22] sort of worked in the commercial world previously. Absolutely go and ask the questions so when

[00:21:29] you're shopping is asked to speak to the manager and you know politely and cautiously say can

[00:21:37] you assure me these products are not tainted by modern slavery and what you're doing to tackle that.

[00:21:43] They probably don't know but they'll feed that up to home office and if enough people do it then

[00:21:47] the messages is felt at home office sorry at the head office and something begins to happen but

[00:21:54] the thing with the bank it or with your pension is asking those questions well where is my money

[00:22:01] invested what are you doing to ensure that the illicit financial flows you know that half a trillion

[00:22:07] dollars around them aren't flowing through your systems. What are you doing to ensure that your

[00:22:15] staff are aware of what modern slavery is and how it presents and how to tackle it. And you know

[00:22:20] which organisations are you working with because I come back to this whole society response.

[00:22:25] It's very easy to point the finger at the other person and actually what we need is for society

[00:22:30] to come together and say look we have this shared common problem how we're going to crack it. What's

[00:22:35] what's the role of an individual? What's the role of legislators? What's the role of law

[00:22:40] enforcement? What's the role of business and what's the role of NGO? What's the role of media? Because

[00:22:45] this is how we will tackle such an ingrained and endemic problem. I just liked it when you were talking

[00:22:51] there about the average individual if you like the person out shopping or however you were putting

[00:22:57] it there because often people just don't see this as anything that they can do something about

[00:23:05] it. And just call out like that even if it was like half a dozen efforts when they kind of

[00:23:13] muster their friends and neighbours or their particular hobby groups or their interest groups

[00:23:18] or whatever to actually go along. I found this many years ago when we were trying to actually get

[00:23:25] child protection more aware in all sports and you see now the difference of a huge campaign,

[00:23:33] a huge awareness raising campaign and I'll be frank to an embarrassment campaign

[00:23:39] to sports and coaches and goodness or what else. And I'm just saying that particular methodology

[00:23:47] won't solve anything huge but it certainly makes people feel that they're involved and actually

[00:23:54] become more aware of the mega problem as it were that you've outlined.

[00:23:58] Yeah, absolutely. And I think it's also a lesson from history. You know we go back to the Transatlantic

[00:24:05] Slavetrade what actually significantly shifted the dial was the general population becoming

[00:24:11] aware of the issue and for them it was saying well we're not going to purchase sugar because

[00:24:18] the only sugar you could buy then was made by slaves. And so we're not going

[00:24:28] to do this and that brought the sugar barriers to their knees that in turn allowed the politicians

[00:24:33] to move in terms of the legislation. And so every individual can help towards our goal and it's

[00:24:45] not just our goal, many other NGOs involved in this saying that it is possible to have a world

[00:24:50] without slavery and it just means sometimes saying to a business like I love your products but I

[00:24:57] can't purchase it because you can't prove to me that they're not tainted by forced labor or

[00:25:03] as you're walking down the high street and you see that car wash and you just need to go well

[00:25:11] that many people times in minimum wage versus what they're challenging for a car wash. It's not

[00:25:17] that the sums don't add up therefore you know is there some level of exploitation going on?

[00:25:22] I choose not to put my business there and I also choose to sort of report it or the nail bar or

[00:25:29] you know increasing when I was seeing it you know within the care sector in terms of all

[00:25:34] all these care workers that have come in on the recent visa scheme and finding themselves in an

[00:25:39] exploitive situation. Be curious about the world that you live in and be on British and speak

[00:25:46] up about it. Well that I mean that's crucial that last one we keep that in mind for the second

[00:25:51] but I'm more than aware but because I've heard people talking about it, people I respect.

[00:25:57] I mean of the things that you've just outlined whether it's the nail bars or

[00:26:00] our little barbers or whether it's the car washes or whether it's care sector as you say but

[00:26:08] you never see a huge amount of this in the media as far as I'm aware do you have a problem with

[00:26:16] how much the media wants to get involved? Well as I said earlier I think we see more than we saw

[00:26:23] 10 years ago and if we look at and track the media coverage it is growing but it hasn't yet

[00:26:30] reached that cut-thru moment where people where the general population go I get this.

[00:26:38] And the population is then going well we don't want this

[00:26:43] and you know there are far more expert people around sort of media and the perception

[00:26:51] side of things. And some of it is is is drip drip drip but that there also needs to be those

[00:26:56] aha moments when the population gets it and we haven't had that yet with modern servicament. Yes

[00:27:03] I think much more aware and when you look at the polling you know the numbers are up but they're

[00:27:10] not where they need to be where you can say yes the majority of the population get this

[00:27:17] they know how to squat the signs and they know what to do when they see the signs

[00:27:21] and that creates an environment where it's more difficult or modern slavery to exist but again

[00:27:29] there is also sort of personal responsibility around this which is you know we all love a bargain

[00:27:35] and how many times do we look at the way with the bargain you know we

[00:27:41] I can get my car valedict for 20 quid whereas you know only a few years ago that would have cost me

[00:27:47] £100 to get a good buy a T-shirt so quid yeah yeah and it's back to this demand for cheap

[00:27:56] labor services and goods. And you know businesses sometimes say oh well it's the consumer that

[00:28:03] is driven this and having worked on that side of the question I go one now actually you

[00:28:07] we educated the consumer and my question to businesses is don't put or sell items that you can't

[00:28:17] you know be sure of the efficacy of how they were made and manufactured. Why should the

[00:28:23] consumer have to make the choice between two items one which may be tended by force labor

[00:28:28] and the other that isn't just focus on you know cleaning up the supply chains and ensuring that

[00:28:35] the principles of decent worker adhere to so that the consumer doesn't face Hobbson's choice.

[00:28:40] You know because happy you know how is it the response for you to the consumer to research

[00:28:44] everything that they're purchasing? Well yeah so let me ask you then a question about labeling

[00:28:50] I mean because obviously what exists in terms of actual kind of advances in terms of that

[00:28:56] because for example whether it's coffee from South America whether it's clothes from Asia

[00:29:00] whether it's prawns from the Pacific Rim whatever it is you know the obvious thing would be to have

[00:29:08] some kind of recognized acceptable nationwide labeling scheme that people can literally look out

[00:29:15] without having to read tiny print in a supermarket. What other advances and that kind of kind of

[00:29:23] shining a spotlight? There are some but it's not it's not a one-size-fits-all so where you have what's

[00:29:33] called a vertical supply chain. Let's say cocoa and chocolate you know we're very easy to trace

[00:29:40] back to source what's going on you know there are brands now that say you know our goods are free

[00:29:49] from slavery and we're also open where we find you know we're open and transparent about where we

[00:29:56] found problems and this is what we're doing so I think you know they can be brand switching to say

[00:30:03] okay I'm going to put you from those brands where it becomes more difficult is say take a mobile phone

[00:30:10] which has between four and six hundred different component parts but a label on that phone to say

[00:30:17] it is free from your modern slavery. I mean you have to verify not just only the four to six hundred

[00:30:24] component parts and some of that you know you go you're going back to rare earth minerals

[00:30:28] that dug out the ground in D.R.C but all the way through the different manufacturing processes

[00:30:34] and bringing it together so it's incredibly difficult to do that and I think where unseen

[00:30:40] sense is we want to rather than name and chain companies we want to name and fame those companies

[00:30:48] that are really leaning into this you know we've had a generation of globalization where supply chains

[00:30:55] have gone all over the world it is going to take a generation two but it should take less than

[00:31:01] generation to get back to where companies know where the supply chains go and they know the

[00:31:06] circumstances in which goods are manufactured and made and those companies that are really leaning

[00:31:11] into it and wanting to do the right thing and investigate then yeah we should fame them and

[00:31:17] then the consumer can make a choice which is do I buy from company A or company B company A

[00:31:23] is not saying that they've arrived and that they're slavery but they're really leaning into it

[00:31:27] company B doesn't get care it's just all about the profits then the consumer can make an informed

[00:31:31] choice in terms of where it wants to go but the issue is so endemic and so baked in you know

[00:31:39] it is going to take a while to get there do you feel that you're getting good kind of if you like

[00:31:49] collegiate car cooperation from other charities agencies organizations that are trying to address

[00:31:58] you know some of the issues that you've outlined do you feel that there's a good kind of

[00:32:03] cooperative effort going on or does that need more cohesion?

[00:32:10] Um yes there's good effort and yes it needs even more cohesion um you know go back to the numbers

[00:32:18] that we're talking about no one single organization can resolve this issue on its own

[00:32:24] um and given its complexity different organizations lead on on different things

[00:32:30] um what's been really pleasing is in the last sort of five years certainly in the anti-favoris

[00:32:37] space um the sector has come closer and closer together and become more collegiate now some of

[00:32:43] it has been driven by the politics that we've had to navigate you know with the ratcheting up

[00:32:49] as a hostile environment the deliberate conflation between trafficking smuggling and

[00:32:54] and immigration and you know the arrival of the nationality and borders act in the legal migration

[00:33:00] act and the Rwanda bill soon to become Rwanda Act which has changed the tone and changed the rights

[00:33:09] around modern slavery victims, 10 towards modern slavery victims and the rights that they can support

[00:33:14] that they can access so i think the sectors come together and so you know that this

[00:33:19] this is not right in that whole process but i'm also interested in in the cross sector works you

[00:33:25] know so for me it's are we working better with this actionalities are we working better with

[00:33:33] the corporate sector are we working better with the academic sector are we working better with the

[00:33:38] media sector so that we have that whole society response um and you know some things are better

[00:33:46] than others but you know if the direction of travel is in the right direction then we're moving

[00:33:51] the needle forward who will be better absolutely are we satisfied with where we're at no we're not

[00:33:59] so you know let's do more together and faster at the beginning you talked about

[00:34:06] examples of kind of you know interface if you like with the the statutory services

[00:34:13] whether it's law enforcement social services whatever but there's also health and education

[00:34:19] um i mean it's easy to sort of give a give a rundown in terms of just do you get good cooperation

[00:34:28] in the health sector for example in the NHS because that must be an enormous

[00:34:32] purchaser of goods and services um i mean you mentioned the care homes and so forth that

[00:34:39] that possibly are being corrupted by the influx of slave labor at some places but i mean generally

[00:34:47] nationally the NHS is the largest employer in Britain if i believe if i'm right i mean do you have

[00:34:53] good relations would you say with the with the with health services and education

[00:35:02] yes and it's growing and i think it's no you're right the NHS is the biggest employer in the UK

[00:35:11] but it's it's where you know where we need to target that so i mean we work as a number of other

[00:35:16] NGOs to get an amendment into the healthcare act the healthcare act now says that the NHS may not

[00:35:23] purchase goods that are tainted by forced labor so in terms of you know the NHS purchasing it

[00:35:30] you know it should now be focused on ensuring that it knows what it's purchasing and the

[00:35:35] circumstances in which those goods have been made um and if there's any concerns over forced

[00:35:40] labor then it shouldn't be purchasing so then our next step is to work with those put those parts

[00:35:45] of the NHS that are involved in purchasing saying and this is really our calling card which is how can

[00:35:49] we help you yeah understand what the issues are what you need to do what are the matrix that you

[00:35:56] need to put those purchasing decisions through so that we're not perpetuating forced labor and

[00:36:01] less supply chains in other parts of the NHS very much take that point very much take that point

[00:36:06] that you've made a couple of times which is sensualy is that you'd rather not just be a finger pointing

[00:36:11] agency you're rather be a how can we help you agency yeah absolutely um yeah i saw you the other day in

[00:36:19] a picture with the commissioner yeah um could you just say a little bit about because i mean i don't

[00:36:27] think very many people are aware of her role um i mean i'm not even sure of a total title the commissioner for

[00:36:35] they are the independent anti-sledley commissioner um and again this was something that we called

[00:36:42] back in our report in 2013 and we got it into the the modern slavery act and i remember back

[00:36:52] acting the day having discussions with government ministers trying to persuade them why this role

[00:36:56] was important the the role is to bring coordination as well as scrutiny of how the UK and all of the

[00:37:07] uh constituent parts are working in terms of tackling modern slavery and also to give voice

[00:37:15] and amplification to the needs of survivors of trafficking and exploitation i mean sadly the role

[00:37:27] was vacant for two years the the government didn't renew the contact with the previous independent

[00:37:33] anti-sledley commissioner named Sarah Thornton um and in the interim period you know passed the

[00:37:38] national team borders act and illegal migration act um and one can add draw certain um conclusions from

[00:37:45] that they have now uh reappointed um so rather than they've appointed Ellen Alines as the commissioner

[00:37:54] they knew him to role um and unfortunately in their first uh appearance before that they were first select

[00:38:01] committee you know alarmingly said that their budget was going to be cut anyway um from what had

[00:38:08] previously been existing and so i think what that speaks to is with this current government it's

[00:38:15] lack of uh seriousness in terms of dealing with the issue and despite the economic numbers that we

[00:38:21] talked about earlier um and the deprioritization of this issue you know when Theresa May was Prime

[00:38:28] Minister it was on the national modern slavery was on the national threat assessment there was a

[00:38:33] committee that met at Downing Street and it was on the threat assessment of every chief comfortable

[00:38:38] length and breadth of this country that's no longer the case and yet the numbers have gone up

[00:38:44] the economic impact has gone up um which means the numbers of individual supplies are devastated

[00:38:50] by this crime um it you know is not tender 13000 it's over 100 000 and more

[00:38:58] and so actually you have to say more how seriously does the government take this issue

[00:39:03] you begin to wonder don't know it independent commissioners you know they come and they go and but in

[00:39:09] terms of actual being able to push things through have the authority have the budget have the resources

[00:39:15] whatever i mean you only need to look at these roles and homelessness or domestic violence or

[00:39:21] whatever and you begin to wonder as you say after they've been cut but just picking out last

[00:39:27] point up there on Theresa May i know she is now cheering that an international commission on

[00:39:32] slavery and it's all full of the great and the good ex prime ministers and you know very kind of

[00:39:38] senior people from worldwide what i mean not many people well i don't believe that not many people

[00:39:45] are even aware of it i mean what what's your view on that do you think it's going to have an impact

[00:39:49] um i to be honest i don't know at this point i understand why um Theresa set it up um i was at the

[00:40:00] launch uh and spoke with her um at that launch and um it is driven by the fact that the governments

[00:40:08] of the world came together around the SDGs society development goals and SDG 8.7 says we will

[00:40:17] eradicate modern slavery but you could you just say SDG sorry for people this now i'm not sure

[00:40:22] what STG stands for society development goals thanks okay so these are UN goals or how you know how we can

[00:40:34] it's around the environment around work around cohesive societies you know there's

[00:40:40] um a whole set of goals and 8.7 says we will eradicate modern slavery by 2030

[00:40:47] well that is six years away but we won't so for me the question is how far past 2030 are we prepared to go

[00:40:55] as a as a global society in terms of tackling you know the surrender's crime uh it's all very well

[00:41:05] so it's like say we're going to drive a hundred miles but they haven't got any petrol on the car

[00:41:10] yes and so i think that the motivation of

[00:41:14] all trees are made is to say well this needs to get back on the political agenda and the political

[00:41:20] priorities and ex-prime ministers do have a certain amount of clout and the ability to call people

[00:41:29] together and to highlight issues so on and that respect you know why wouldn't anybody applaud

[00:41:36] that but again it will take it all comes down to the proof that the pudding is in the delivery

[00:41:43] and and do we um and does this commission significantly move the dial or not

[00:41:49] and you know is it only just started and we'll have to wait and see

[00:41:52] thank you one final question then Andrew I think we've got to wrap this up but

[00:41:57] I mean it's fascinating and and I do really appreciate you taking the time for this um well

[00:42:04] I have a modest audience but they're mainly can you know professionals within the sort of the

[00:42:10] statutory sector and law enforcement and social work etc etc but a message from unseen to them

[00:42:20] I mean what can they do and how can you know how can they actually get more and better informed

[00:42:28] well David I've enjoyed speaking with you as well and thank you for having me I think the message

[00:42:33] your listeners that are within those statutory agencies is is get trained first so you know what

[00:42:41] it is we're talking about and you know how to spot the signs and then understand what are my

[00:42:46] responsibilities within my organization when I come across it um and you know and work with unseen

[00:42:54] you know if if you haven't got in house training then they get in touch with us so that we can

[00:42:59] provide that training it's cpd registered so you know we'll go towards that your development

[00:43:06] in terms of that as well um and then you know you are also a key member of society so

[00:43:13] not only be trained in terms of you know your professional role but tell others tell your

[00:43:19] friends your neighbours and and wider contacts about the issue and what to do okay um and you know

[00:43:28] one helpful thing that you can do is download our app to the unseen app which is you know increasingly

[00:43:36] on police force phones um and on healthcare phones and on local government phones but if you haven't

[00:43:43] got the app the app gives you all of the indicators all the signs to look for you can report through

[00:43:48] to the helpline directly from the app um but it also has all the legal frameworks as well that

[00:43:53] um may be applicable to your role so there's some practical things that you can do I appreciate

[00:43:59] and um I'm sure you and your staff need to hear how much appreciated they are for the work that

[00:44:07] they're doing but I'll just say for one more time all the links the contact details details about

[00:44:14] the app but details about the helpline whatever makes I'm going to make sure is on the front page

[00:44:20] of this podcast so Andrew was thank you very much indeed for your time and good luck to you

[00:44:26] thank you very much David pleasure talking to you