156 Traffiking and Slavery. Follow the Money.

[00:00:00] Well, welcome back to Thoughts On The Social World, the Social World Podcast. I'm Dave

[00:00:19] Niven and as usual it's a delight to have your company and I am pursuing a subject

[00:00:25] we pursued before, human trafficking, anti-slavery but this one's more specific it's

[00:00:33] full of the money and I've never had an expert on here before and so I'm absolutely delighted

[00:00:38] to have Irene Rajwani who is a financial expert whose history has been involved fully in

[00:00:46] the finance industry but has also now been absorbed into the anti-trafficking world

[00:00:53] if you like and he is considered to be an expert in this and working with anti-trafficking

[00:00:59] intelligence initiative ATII which people have had on this program many times so look, welcome

[00:01:06] to the program Karim. Thank you. And it's a pleasure to have you and I'm so glad that

[00:01:13] we can look at this aspect of it and allow people to learn a little bit more about this

[00:01:19] side of things the financial side of things and how they can participate and how they can

[00:01:25] have their awareness raised so how did you start getting involved in this in the first

[00:01:32] place? Sure, Dan and thank you for inviting me. My background is really a chartered account

[00:01:41] and actually in the UK before I moved to Canada and became a CPA here but I joined sort

[00:01:49] of the banking industry and got into the AML space when the regulations were first coming

[00:01:57] out in Canada in 2001 so really the role was to sort of build out the anti-money lowering

[00:02:04] program and soon after that I really came across a lady Leigh Ann McDonnell who heads up the

[00:02:14] Canadian Centre for Child Protection and that's sort of the sort of primary sort of centre

[00:02:20] for monitoring sexually explicit images on the internet. And we started sort of a project

[00:02:30] from there in terms of how do we go about identifying sort of at that case child sexual exploitation

[00:02:39] but then over the years I've been involved in a number of initiatives on human trafficking

[00:02:45] and child sexual exploitation more broadly. As you said involved with the ATII, the anti-human

[00:02:53] trafficking intelligence initiatives where I share their advice report and act as a senior advisor

[00:03:02] and also the rehab stortals which focusses on rescuing trafficking and victims.

[00:03:11] It's quite a responsibility, I mean this sounds a very simplistic question but first of all

[00:03:20] did you feel that you're making progress? That is a great question and it may not seem so

[00:03:30] because if you look in the size of the problem and what we can go into that in more detail

[00:03:36] versus sort of the number of victims that have been rescued identified, funds stopped

[00:03:45] the number of suspicious activity reports filed. You know doesn't seem to show that we're making

[00:03:52] a difference but you know how do you ask me 10 years ago what's a financial institutions role

[00:04:00] in stopping human trafficking and child sexual exploitation I would have said non-zero.

[00:04:07] Not sure what we have to do about this but if you look at it now a lot of institutions are doing

[00:04:14] something about it. It's become a regulatory party globally regulators are putting out guidance

[00:04:23] on this particular issue there's a lot of material at their now for financial institutions in terms

[00:04:31] of other red flags what is it you look for? So I think a lot of work is being done but like

[00:04:39] my opinion is a lot more needs to be done. I mean look I couldn't help but I agree with you more

[00:04:45] because I think in every aspect of people trying to advance the cause of protecting

[00:04:53] the vulnerable and the victims of both abuse and trafficking the scale of the problem

[00:04:58] I believe is such in a way that it's hugely difficult to actually put figures on things but

[00:05:05] maybe we could start with that and if you could just give us a sense of in your understanding

[00:05:10] of the scale of the problem and then possibly almost like a beginner's guide to the sort of

[00:05:15] the way and the mechanics if you like of financial kind of oversight of this and how that might help.

[00:05:26] Sure yeah so if you let's start with sort of the magnitude of the problem and this is just based

[00:05:34] on what we know from published reports such as the UN reports you know they estimate this to be

[00:05:47] $150 billion wrong globally that's all forms of human trafficking and what do we mean by that

[00:05:58] there is obviously sex trafficking child sexual exploitation, labor trafficking and where is

[00:06:05] other forms of trafficking that sort of problem is over $150 billion problem.

[00:06:15] Now that's just based on what we know probably bigger if you look at child sexual exploitation

[00:06:23] formal more difficult to sort of pinpoint that in terms of the problem but just about every

[00:06:31] report you read suggests that there are that is a massive increase in the hundreds in the thousands

[00:06:39] of of sense. Some of this could be to sort of could be due to better reporting but also I think

[00:06:46] what we are seeing is the spread of the internet, the spread of smartphones.

[00:06:51] Children having access to smartphones has exacerbated the problem and that most recently which

[00:06:59] is probably not in the statistics is something called sex torsion. Right kids are unratated this

[00:07:09] is individuals organize crime gangs pretending to be young females convince a young boy right now

[00:07:18] primarily the young boys under 18 to share a new picture and then sexual sexual them. Black male

[00:07:29] yeah black male them essentially and that has grown anywhere between a thousand and seven thousand

[00:07:35] just over the past couple of years. And it does it is leading to to use suicide right and you know

[00:07:45] the victims whether they're human trafficking victims child sexual exploitation victims or sex torsion

[00:07:52] victims you know it's a lifelong process of rehabilitation if ever so you know you are taking them out

[00:08:01] of society for a very long period of time so this is a you know one off thing it's a lifelong

[00:08:08] trauma. I mean obviously you would say like most people who are involved in this that massive more

[00:08:16] resources are needed to help combat this but could you just give us a bit of an idea of how maybe

[00:08:24] people on the front line might be more aware and unhelpful to combating this.

[00:08:33] Yeah and not the general public for the banking industry you know that's where sort of my focus

[00:08:40] it area is I think now there is just so much information available to read about this

[00:08:48] there are UN reports what you have to do is you know UN human trafficking and you'll get the

[00:08:56] most latest report around child sexual exploitation if you go to the Canadian Centre for Child

[00:09:03] Protection there were a lot of research for people not just in terms of the magnitude of the

[00:09:09] problem but what can parents do, what can teachers do, what can social workers do

[00:09:15] to identify to protect kids the ADA I-I website there are you know regulators publish red flags

[00:09:25] like Ben Tracking Canada as an extensive list of red flags for human trafficking and child

[00:09:32] sexual exploitation they conducted two projects with a bank project protect and project shadow

[00:09:39] even all those up and there's an enormous amount of reading so I think for people to say

[00:09:47] I don't know there's nowhere to find this information as a fallacy right now

[00:09:52] there is more than enough information out there cyberchip.ca

[00:09:59] let me ask I sorry I interrupt you but I mean I don't listen but let me let me ask you this

[00:10:04] anything like all the things you've just listed from the ATI website and so forth

[00:10:09] I will make sure is on the front page of this podcast for people to reference and to look at

[00:10:16] and to learn so you know not only the things you've said but anything else afterwards that we

[00:10:22] discussed that you thought of that might point people in the direction of a better awareness

[00:10:28] I will put on the front of this podcast I just want people to understand that.

[00:10:33] Yeah and I can share sort of I've been sort of I go through this on a regular basis and I just

[00:10:39] dump the stuff onto a PowerPoint it's not worry pretty you know I don't spend time making it pretty

[00:10:46] it's really made for my own purpose to sort of keep a track of what's going on

[00:10:51] you know I can give you a link to that so people have sort of one place to look at at least 80%

[00:10:58] of the information it won't be 100% but you know a big chunk of it will be there.

[00:11:03] Excellent well look and let's start a little bit looking at obstacles

[00:11:09] that you've found to progress here. Have you come across much many obstacles within the

[00:11:19] professional world maybe the financial world for example I mean I was under the impression you do

[00:11:25] get 80 II etc does get quite a good relationship and listen and people that listen but there must be

[00:11:32] others that don't quite get it yet I mean have you come across much of that.

[00:11:39] I think let's talk to the financial world right I think it is become really important it has become

[00:11:47] a priority. I think the challenge becomes with financial institutions because there's just so

[00:11:57] many other priorities you know because if you talk about financial crime and predicate

[00:12:05] offenses there's you know a slew of information or responsibilities out there all of them must be

[00:12:14] monitored. The challenge with this particular area is you know typically it in money laundering

[00:12:22] and fraud you are looking for you know high volume high frequency you know repeat sort of repetition

[00:12:35] you know so the certain larger amounts higher risk countries with this I think the problem here is

[00:12:45] it's very low value and it's low frequency so from from an identification perspective historically

[00:12:55] it has been extremely difficult to identify that's not to say you know there's been no progress significant

[00:13:02] progress has been made but this is where I'd say institutions probably need to focus more resources

[00:13:10] and understanding you know how best to sort of retune their capabilities and assistance to focus

[00:13:21] on these sort of low value low frequency because each transaction is fairly small like for

[00:13:28] six torsion it could be eight dollars it could be twenty dollars it could be a hundred dollars so not

[00:13:33] an easy problem you know to solve for but certainly I think technology's come a long way to

[00:13:41] help here. So what about training can it kind of just ask you quickly before you go on about

[00:13:45] training in the financial world I mean public facing people that if you like the more junior members

[00:13:51] the bank tellers or wherever I can imagine too and but are the more senior people who are actually

[00:13:57] analysing you know if you like the whole throughput I mean are you managing to alert people

[00:14:05] enough and provide people with training if they if they listen to you is that something that's

[00:14:12] needing more resources. Certainly I think the banks who are focused on this do have dedicated

[00:14:21] programs on human trafficking what to look for there are banks who even help open survivor

[00:14:31] accounts without sort of getting into the names so and there's lots of training out there.

[00:14:38] So the associate association of certified anti-money learning specialists has a free training

[00:14:45] program out there for this so it doesn't cost anything you just sign up take the training so

[00:14:50] there's various trainings on there who in the financial institution sorry who who would actually

[00:14:55] sign up for it ideally in your view. So there are some previous groups yeah certainly the front line

[00:15:02] to recognise you know if a victim comes in with with a pimpe it's critical that front line staff

[00:15:10] understand that and alert the sort of relevant groups in the organisation the investigation groups

[00:15:18] within financial institutions you know what we go are internal financial intelligence units

[00:15:25] these are the teams that investigate you know all transactions for potential suspicious

[00:15:32] activity you know that's a really important group that should be trained and then finally

[00:15:41] the the teams that are developing the algorithms you know the data science teams yeah to

[00:15:47] better understand what is the problem because without understanding the uniqueness of the problem it's

[00:15:52] really difficult to design the rules to identify it that makes good sense and obviously you need support

[00:16:01] from senior management and so it's it's really important that there's tone at the top this comes

[00:16:08] from top down and this is important so I think senior management do need to be aware and be made

[00:16:14] aware of the size of the problem this isn't something that's happening somewhere else this isn't

[00:16:22] something that's happening to immigrants being brought into a country this is a domestic problem

[00:16:30] predominantly that's interesting yeah you know while it's it's horrific no matter who it happens to

[00:16:39] but there is a belief this isn't happening here and if it is happening it's just your people

[00:16:45] brought in smuggled no no it's happening to you know UK Canadian American women the average age

[00:16:55] is like 12 12 to 14 years entry into the sex trade so it's happening to our kids are women are boys

[00:17:06] and so massive right it's a massive problem yeah can I mean obviously the podcast has

[00:17:14] a fairly worldwide audience but a lot of it obviously as you would guess there's a substantial

[00:17:20] amount in the UK and North America or you know including you know Canada and America but effectively

[00:17:28] are you aware of activity in the UK that is progressing this

[00:17:36] when you say progressing in terms of fight against it if you like you know in the areas that

[00:17:44] you were mentioning yeah I mean certainly I think UK in many ways has taken a leadership role

[00:17:52] you know Canada's done something similar with project project in project shadow

[00:17:57] you know the UK banks are doing an enormous amount to identify all of these crimes the European

[00:18:06] bank is Alliance most recently the UK online safety bill you know apologies I may not have got

[00:18:14] the name right that is a major step forward I'll get that but it didn't go far enough if you

[00:18:20] might say but anyway there we are yeah it did not go far enough but I think the responses from

[00:18:28] you know other jurisdictions from mainland Europe has been well we'll do a risk assessment and

[00:18:34] then we'll determine no no no I think you've got to be far more explicit and regulate social media

[00:18:41] companies the internet service providers because it's a problem that can be tackled you certainly

[00:18:48] can't solve it 100% but there's something that can be done about it a lot can be done about it

[00:18:54] well I know that at least you know I mean if you like the the the targets of traffickers also include

[00:19:02] obviously I mean every year in Europe there's at least a quarter of a million children go missing

[00:19:11] and as far as I was aware and also with the Ukraine war that diaspora if you like I was almost

[00:19:18] like Christmas for the traffickers in terms of the youngsters that have now disappeared so it doesn't

[00:19:28] surprise me what you say but it's encouraging a little bit you know you say that there is an awareness

[00:19:33] there perhaps not enough resources yet are focused on it but certainly I'm good awareness

[00:19:39] yeah and I'd say you know my banking colleagues will you know beat me up and criticize

[00:19:47] as far as saying this but if this is a $150 billion problem globally probably more

[00:19:55] you know there are reports which say this is in the top five let's say the top 10 criminal

[00:20:01] activities now and you compare that to the number of suspicious activity reports being filed

[00:20:12] you know I can tell you in Canada and in the US it's minuscule compared to the size of the problem

[00:20:19] let's say the top five the top 10 then regulators need to do a little more unfortunately to say

[00:20:25] to the banks hey guys what's going on here the numbers don't add up I mean the big players obviously

[00:20:33] increasingly over the years now are organized crime I believe and also when talking to your

[00:20:41] colleagues in 80 II I mean there's so much activity goes on on the dark web and that essentially

[00:20:48] is a place of conflict too when they try and dive deep and actually identify problems to pass

[00:20:57] to law enforcement yeah certainly you know it's a dark web problem but it's say you know

[00:21:07] open problem there's lots of stuff in the dark web but if you look it's the human

[00:21:15] trafficking or the sex trafficking side of things so by sex trafficking we mean you know

[00:21:24] trafficking predominantly women we're talking 75 80% according to you you you end report and in

[00:21:30] some cases over 90% women and you know a large portion 25% plus are under 18 we know what about

[00:21:39] the traffickers to do business they need to do it in the public map they need to advertise right

[00:21:48] yeah and so you know it is it is out there in in the open not just in the dark web okay well look how

[00:21:59] about this how to promote greater awareness where would you say the kind of the the pressure points

[00:22:08] are that we should be focusing on not obviously financial institutions because that's your

[00:22:14] professional expertise but you know they're and elsewhere are there places that you think could

[00:22:21] be doing far more that's already within their capacity um and again I'll say this and uh I'm

[00:22:29] sorry if I'm getting in trouble oh I'm glad to go out because I don't mind getting into trouble

[00:22:35] I think the schooling system I think this has got to be made mandatory as a education program

[00:22:43] it's no longer a just a problem it is an epidemic six-tortion isn't it when something grows

[00:22:50] at thousand or seven thousand percent that's more than COVID so it is it is an epidemic why do we need to

[00:22:58] educate kids on these issues one you know from a six-tortion perspective they need to be aware

[00:23:08] you know what you're seeing online is not real with the generation of AI and genitor AI

[00:23:16] the individual will seem real we'll talk as if it's a real person but it's not so

[00:23:24] it's really important that kids understand risks a lot of them will not care but unfortunately

[00:23:30] we have to show them real life cases this is this is the outcome there's interesting there's a

[00:23:36] UK police report I believe from the UK police chiefs just in 2024 with said 52% of the alleged

[00:23:47] offenders in England and Wales are minus oh what sorry a minus this is child on child on child

[00:23:58] yeah and they said this is exacerbated by watching violent porn so you know the consequences of

[00:24:08] watching violent porn has a direct relationship to child sexual exploitation to trafficking

[00:24:18] to sex torsion so that's why I say the education system needs to be sort of enhanced

[00:24:28] you know the Canadian Center for Child Protection has material for schools to say hey

[00:24:34] we really do need to educate our kids but it needs to go more than that the you know cell phones

[00:24:41] are spreading globally smartphones right these are all smartphones that there are many pieces in

[00:24:47] fact there are more than many pieces they're like supercomputers in your hand now and you know you

[00:24:54] can have you know somebody in in the Philippines you know abusing kids and that being streamed to

[00:25:02] the UK or anywhere else in the world and that's why I think from an education perspective we've

[00:25:08] got to begin to sort of target the kids and change that mindset you know financial institutions

[00:25:14] definitely need to do more social media internet internet service providers need to do a lot

[00:25:24] lot more I don't think that they're you know clearly doing as much as they as they should but you

[00:25:30] know self-generated images are on the on the rise kids really don't see the problem or the

[00:25:39] consequences of self-generated images and it can come back to approach you for the rest of your

[00:25:46] life and you know result in black male and other things so I think that's interesting yeah

[00:25:53] and suicide so you know it's important that that education happens let me ask you two or three

[00:26:00] things because about 20 years ago or 25 year whatever I mean I did work some work with

[00:26:08] Interpol on sex tourism you know where people went to some of the more vulnerable countries maybe

[00:26:18] in the Pacific Rim or South America or wherever abused children but it that's developed into actually

[00:26:24] not just abusing children but of course you know filming it developing it selling it and so forth

[00:26:31] and as well as that I also did a program not long ago about the supply chains that most of our

[00:26:40] big companies use whether it's for clothing or for food or for whatever and somewhere down

[00:26:45] down the line in many of these supply chains there are children being tortured being exploited

[00:26:52] being killed and abused in order to satisfy mainly the West's desire for that particular food or

[00:27:03] these particular clothing or household items and that seems to me like to overlap if you like

[00:27:11] like you know like these overlapping circles that you get and effectively I think that makes it

[00:27:17] so much more difficult and also the sophistication that you touched on there the increasing sophistication

[00:27:25] of AI so I mean it's such a broad landscape isn't it it makes would probably make some people despair

[00:27:36] yeah and you know begs the question do we need to just take a more coordinated consolidated

[00:27:43] effort on social responsibility in the private sector because you're right right the the

[00:27:54] clothing manufacturers and a number of other high risk industries for labor trafficking which we

[00:28:00] really haven't touched on too much you know do have kids sometimes where we young kids locked up

[00:28:07] in factories producing garments you talked about sex tourism absolutely did a project on that we

[00:28:17] looked at payment patterns travel patterns what purchases they did in terms of security and encryption

[00:28:24] purchases which led to some very successful identification of individuals who start off by watching

[00:28:33] you know sort of streaming of child abuse and then travel to high risk countries such as the

[00:28:41] Philippines Vietnam and this spending patterns suggest that this is not your regular tourist

[00:28:50] if you you know if you're a business Google pig butchering so the big picture

[00:28:58] that one more say that one more time sure if you if you google it to them pig butchering

[00:29:05] yeah so what that is is you know individuals particularly in south is Asia are locked up in compounds

[00:29:16] you know in places like Myanmar and basically their prisoners and what they their job is to scam

[00:29:24] run scams centres yeah so now you've got you know victims human you know people who've been trafficked

[00:29:33] and their job is to scam and so you've you've got sort of a double crime happening right that they're

[00:29:38] scamming people they have no choice they're locked up their quotas and they're being trafficked

[00:29:45] and there's only so much that law enforcement can do unless they've got like a 10

[00:29:54] percent sort of you know a 10 time exponential increase in resources even but

[00:29:59] um well what about the AI side of it because I'm getting more and more informed about AI as

[00:30:08] everybody is in terms of what it what it can do the availability of it but also the absolute deep

[00:30:14] perils that can come that you've partly referred to earlier are there projects being set up

[00:30:21] specifically to look at the not just the dangers of AI but how to combat that yeah I mean I think

[00:30:28] that that's a great question AI comes with a lot of value and benefits and and you know I use it in

[00:30:35] my sort of daily job to sort of hands are monitoring capabilities um but uh you know there are

[00:30:45] dangers you know in this case the individuals you're talking to other person you're looking at

[00:30:54] is not real or they've talked about the image or the video um you know so you can get you know

[00:31:03] your your family member calling you want to make your call saying I desperately need money

[00:31:09] I'm in trouble and it's all fake it's all doctor yeah but also you know there are dangers with

[00:31:17] AI in terms of bias right so you can use AI AI only as good as the data it relies on and the

[00:31:28] people that develop it and so there are there are huge uh risks with that what we are seeing is

[00:31:36] governments begin just begin I'd say to think about it and legislate around that one in particular

[00:31:45] is you know sort of the use of AI to create these these fake images the use of AI to create

[00:31:55] uh with you know artificial childhood um which is not unreal child but it's AI generated so

[00:32:02] there are areas I think we are going to see a lot more from governments on the responsible use of AI

[00:32:09] there are standards being published um but I think we may need to pick up the speed on this because

[00:32:17] the forces left the bond and so we need to act with them. The the financial crisis that's

[00:32:27] kind of has been dribbling through specifically you know if you like the west for many years now

[00:32:34] have actually prevented certain things moving forward or being you know funded as much as they

[00:32:41] should have been I mean and I'd rather suspect that exploitation is one of them.

[00:32:48] Um if you imagine your audience right now um is full of people who obviously everybody uses

[00:32:58] a financial institution of some description or other whether there's banks and currencies

[00:33:02] whatever what should they be asking their financial institutions regarding this can are there

[00:33:10] questions that the listeners here could could actually come up with to to actually ask for explanations

[00:33:18] or talk about what the what their financial institutions are actually doing is is that helpful.

[00:33:25] I think yeah that's sort of an interesting sort of question um if you know

[00:33:32] clients would go to the bank and say tell me exactly what your policies and programs

[00:33:39] are around fighting let's call it human crime uh even trafficking,

[00:33:45] child sexual exploitation. What are you doing to identify, stop monitoring?

[00:33:52] I think the banks would pay attention to say this is become an important topic for my client base

[00:34:02] and so yes I encourage it go go to the banks ask them because the more people that

[00:34:10] ask the more important it becomes and the more resources are devoted to it but I think at the same

[00:34:17] time you know uh and I've been sort of in the sort of financial crime industry for almost 25 years now

[00:34:25] um and we have spent an enormous amount on on fighting financial crime that's no excuse for the

[00:34:34] for the bad banks you know who have been censured and and you know find um absolutely

[00:34:42] but I think at the same time you know if you go to invest billions as you know if you look at the

[00:34:49] financial services industry you're talking billions and billions of dollars I think we've

[00:34:56] got to do more to fund the government agencies in in the UK the NCA. We've got to fund the

[00:35:03] prosecutors offices right we've got to look at the sentencing guidelines we've got to look at the

[00:35:08] burden of proof because what I see having right now are all these suspicious activity reports

[00:35:16] going into this massive black hole not full top of these agencies but there's only so much you can do

[00:35:25] yes yeah I think I think it's um the nature of finance these days to my amateur if you like

[00:35:32] understanding essentially is it so much of it is remote um and I mean I remember

[00:35:39] we're talking to the law enforcement in Sri Lanka for example um when they were asking you

[00:35:48] know like what could they do to improve their um work against um the sex trafficking thing and I

[00:35:56] suggestive a couple of things and a few weeks later they put something up it was old school okay

[00:36:03] but it had a great impact I think and it was like they put this enormous great billboard up

[00:36:08] at Colombo Airport that said welcome to Sri Lanka if you abuse our children in any way we guarantee

[00:36:18] you at least 20 years in horror class accommodation yeah and that's great you know I think every country

[00:36:27] should take that example you know we are seeing airports uh you know restaurants hotels

[00:36:35] and even restaurants um these signs going up um you know with 1-800 and this

[00:36:43] certainly more of that you know and a lot of these agencies that I work with are struggling

[00:36:54] financially yeah right they're struggling financially they they're surviving day to day and

[00:37:00] it's to say they're in the business of identifying then the business of prevention protection

[00:37:08] why are they they struggling well there is of course the absolute peculiarity of human nature as

[00:37:17] well I mean for example I do believe that in this country charities to do with child exploitation

[00:37:28] many of them actually collect less funding than donkey sanctuaries

[00:37:38] so it's just a question of how the population views things sometimes or maybe just doesn't even want

[00:37:45] to think about stuff that is just so beyond their horrific understanding I think it's a question

[00:37:54] of it's market well let's be honest I think it's to do marketing as well um as actually awareness

[00:38:01] raising what do you think of that particular point of view yeah so you know um one I think we do need

[00:38:09] to educate the public um you know as to how do we get those ads out there who pays for those ads

[00:38:19] um and we're not talking one problem here you're talking a multitude of all problems right

[00:38:26] whether that be sex, social, and child sexual exploitation trafficking uh so I think

[00:38:32] there needs to be greater awareness because unless it becomes a political issue and a voting issue

[00:38:39] unfortunately nothing happens no matter which country I totally understand what you're saying

[00:38:44] I mean look at that list which of course you could add to as well you know with all the kind of

[00:38:48] labes slavery and labor slavery and all that other other issues do you think it's just too much for

[00:38:53] some people that maybe what we need to do is high off each one as a particular target so that people

[00:39:00] can actually absorb and understand or because it all seems to get lumped together sometimes

[00:39:06] doesn't it yeah and that's why I say this isn't sort of I mean certainly there's the big message around

[00:39:12] how big the problem is but then I think you've got to begin to say uh you know talk about each of the

[00:39:20] the areas you know like the the child sexual abuse the the center the Canadian center which monitors

[00:39:30] globally by the way um it's sort of wireless based in Canada that the technology monitors globally

[00:39:38] they have a massive backlog of images to go through because they don't have the resources to do that

[00:39:51] you know and if you look at any stat it's not only horrific in terms of what's happening but the growth

[00:40:02] um you know as it's exponential we would not tolerate this type of growth in any other area

[00:40:10] um so I don't think we've lived on enough to educate the public. I take that point very strongly

[00:40:17] um Luke Karim I could carry on talking to you for ages but we've got to come to the end of this

[00:40:22] and I'm just going to give you a minute if you would just for a sort of one last minute

[00:40:26] here you have the microphone to talk to your profession if you like although it's pretty broad

[00:40:34] the financial industries but what would you say to them now um you know let's imagine they're all

[00:40:41] listening that'd be nice but let's imagine they're all listening well what kind of message would

[00:40:45] you like to put out. Take the step do something um I'm not saying that this is easy but there are

[00:40:54] us you know it can be done there are some really easy steps uh I'm available and and you know

[00:41:01] I don't charge for providing these these services if they're around human trafficking in

[00:41:06] child sexual exploitation. Something can be done do something and that it you know for schools

[00:41:13] the teachers the parents educate yourself um because with that knowledge you you you really could

[00:41:22] not prevent and you can act so please educate yourself and I'd say you know to the social media

[00:41:29] companies, to the ISPNs please do more you've got the funding you've got the technology you've

[00:41:36] got the capabilities please do more. You've just got to have the input or so okay well look

[00:41:41] Karim it's been an absolute pleasure talking to you and and very very informative

[00:41:47] so to you and colleagues and everything I wish you all the very best and and strength to your work

[00:41:53] so thank you very much for being my guest today. Thank you for inviting me