155 Trapped in County Lines. Christina Gabbitas

[00:00:00] Well, welcome back to the Social Work Podcast Thoughts On The Social World is what

[00:00:18] you Google. And I'm delighted as usual to have your company, I'm Dave Niven and

[00:00:23] as always, I hope. We've got a really good, interesting and very busy guest today. Christina

[00:00:34] Gabbattas. Now, some of you might remember Christina from before she's an author. She

[00:00:40] is a campaigner for children's rights and safety. She is also now an unremember of the NSPCC

[00:00:48] Council and has involved in all sorts of initiatives, which some of which we were going to get

[00:00:53] through the programme. So, welcome Christina. Good morning, David. Thank you for having

[00:00:59] me again. No, you're welcome. No, okay. I think firstly what I'd like to do is just talk

[00:01:06] about the latest book that you put out, it's effectively for youngsters graphic novel, but

[00:01:14] it's a sequel story from No More Knives County Lines which is what you did before. This

[00:01:19] one's called Trapton County Lines and I know that you've been incredibly busy with police forces

[00:01:26] and others, especially in the north of England actually going round and actually talking to

[00:01:31] classes of children who age appropriately about this. Do you want to expand on that a bit please?

[00:01:37] Okay, so yeah, Trapton County Lines is this equal story. So previously, the No More Knives

[00:01:45] or County Lines which was commissioned initially by the Humberside Police and Crime Commissioner

[00:01:52] was a huge success. Visited over 150 schools now, predominantly primary, again I think primary

[00:02:03] age children are being overlooked for education because of the success of that one

[00:02:09] and I went out extensively with North Yorkshire Police with the schools liaison's team into

[00:02:16] many schools as we come beside Abinion on the South Bank of the Humber. So in North Yorkshire,

[00:02:21] it's been so many primary schools, the unsecondrisoned complex needs people referral units

[00:02:26] and so it was Sergeant Hadilue, so said or a sequel story would be brilliant. So there was

[00:02:35] born Trapton County Lines, the Trapton County Lines sees the characters groomed once again into

[00:02:41] County Lines but this time things are set to never be the same. Well I mean listen it's incredible

[00:02:50] most authors, most successful authors talk about their book tours you know going round kind of like

[00:02:57] waterstones or other big book shops and things like that which I'm sure you have as well but to go

[00:03:01] round 150 primary schools must be some kind of a record for a book tour and at the same time doing

[00:03:08] so much good. Well do you know what I really enjoy all my writing has educational elements about

[00:03:17] them but this is the one that I actually enjoy doing the most because I feel like it can I can

[00:03:26] help to make a difference and I do I think it's really important this is to say all my

[00:03:33] stories of educational elements and I think getting the message across because I'm hearing so many

[00:03:39] stories from from doing the first story obviously I do a lot of research interviewed an ex-Gangcline

[00:03:44] member lived experience. You know I include young people with my research as well to find out what

[00:03:52] they would think would be good to put within the story and I just think it's it's really important

[00:03:58] because I'm getting so many messages from parents of children who have been caught up in county

[00:04:04] lines and it's horrific. I have some awful stories it's not going away in one particular area

[00:04:14] well actually I'm going to say within the Highlands of Scotland is that you know a parent there

[00:04:20] said a son's been ingrubbed in county lines he's 13 years old he organised crime groups

[00:04:26] buying up old cheap council properties and using them as drug den's and to loan the money.

[00:04:32] It's just I'm receiving so many different messages that's that's just one. No I mean it sounds

[00:04:38] quite horrific to be honest I mean listen I tell you what just for people that might not be

[00:04:42] immediately aware of though I think a lot of people that listen to safeguarding are aware but

[00:04:48] just a quick sentence or two explaining county lines. Okay so county lines where

[00:04:56] children can you know in my stories are exploited and groomed into delivering drugs packages

[00:05:01] into different areas so for instance in my stories from leads to Manchester

[00:05:07] carrying the packages you with the burner phones into the different areas basically it's just

[00:05:12] carrying the drugs packages into different areas and a lot of the well children

[00:05:19] groomed from primary age and it's quite horrific the teenagers have been exploited and groomed

[00:05:26] and the who are all sort of victims and then they're bringing in the primary age children as well

[00:05:31] and also be drugs curriers and also under under a lot of threat too.

[00:05:37] That they are and what we have to realise sometimes is that sometimes children aren't they're

[00:05:43] putting a position where they can't say no they're not given a choice and it's basically the idea

[00:05:51] is when we go into schools and you know if I get a call from a school and say look can you

[00:05:56] come in I'll contact the local policing team wherever I am because I know how important it is

[00:06:01] and how it can be really helpful to everybody. Lots of safeguarding issues have come to light

[00:06:09] and it can be really helpful for you know for police and partners as well and it's just really

[00:06:15] important and I can't express enough it's that it's actually some schools don't want us to go in

[00:06:27] um they don't want their children learning about it and I say well in doing your children a

[00:06:32] massive disservice because unfortunately we have our children now have access to all kinds of things

[00:06:39] and as much as as parents we try and police it ourselves you can't do all the time you can't

[00:06:45] say you know I spoke to one friend all of my my daughter doesn't go and tick tock.

[00:06:50] Yeah well I think I think it's the Christina that you listen to your own figure speak for it

[00:06:58] I mean yes there always going to be people that are more protective or have a particular philosophy

[00:07:04] about what young children should and shouldn't hear. I know we get it but the vast majority by

[00:07:09] the sound of it invite you in I mean you know 150 primary schools can't be wrong um and so it's

[00:07:17] not as if everybody's stopping you it sounds like the great majority um and what more can you do

[00:07:24] really than that. Yeah and I think that for those that are kind of reticent about it is that

[00:07:31] I think I would say that first and foremost we're educating the children and then we're helping

[00:07:36] the teachers because the teachers have so much to do there's only so much that they can take on board

[00:07:42] it helps them to open up the conversations and carry on having that conversation afterwards

[00:07:47] then when we go into school the children take away a copy of the comic strip story

[00:07:52] and in you know they can then have a conversation with their parents so it helps to get it out

[00:07:58] into the communities and I think more needs to be done with early intervention and predominantly

[00:08:04] children are in school so that's where to capture them and then for the parents and this works

[00:08:09] it's evident it works because of the messages that I get from parents and carers um and the children

[00:08:15] through the social media channel through the YouTube and through talk I was advised by the youth

[00:08:20] commission to set up a TikTok account believe you me TikTok is not a place where I want to have

[00:08:25] a gun account but that said this is really helping with the impact and the measurement of the

[00:08:32] impact because we're going to the school to have the conversation um run the session basically in

[00:08:38] a primary school is kind of getting them to understand what it means when someone is trying to

[00:08:41] groom and trying to get them to do something I think it's horses for courses though what you're saying

[00:08:46] I taught you to get it I mean and I know you wouldn't just join TikTok to learn how to do the

[00:08:51] latest dance I mean but what I am finding is obviously you know primary children shouldn't be on

[00:08:58] that but they are and so they send in messages on there so you know I said do you

[00:09:04] for did you find that useful do we you know and the thing is they're remembering why we went into

[00:09:09] the school it's their stories there so I'm sharing each school I go into obviously um you know

[00:09:16] Seth God in committing we can share some photos to grasp and just put a little reel together

[00:09:23] and that's a way to especially with the a lot of the secondaries yourself once again

[00:09:27] is the secondary school and I know a second though I just got to contextualise this and then

[00:09:34] then we'll get you started on that again because you've also you follow up book that you've done

[00:09:40] is for slightly older children as far as I understand it primary to secondary is that about right

[00:09:46] anyway there's the trapped in county life but the important thing is it's the style that you've

[00:09:52] done it in you've deliberately done it as a graphic novel that would appeal to the youngsters

[00:09:58] and from what I gather from your feedback and talking to you and so forth that was a smart move

[00:10:06] and we can get contact all that where to get that and also anything else to do with you

[00:10:12] just this is a good time to remind people all the links to do with what you're talking about

[00:10:17] and more I'll make sure it's on the front page of this podcast

[00:10:22] yeah good so right sorry you are very incredible so trapped in county lines yet kind of in the first

[00:10:29] we the children who arranged in from age 10 to 16 hanging out in the park the groomed by Gagel Steve

[00:10:37] at the end of that they're all kind of arrested and term questioned dealt with by youth

[00:10:42] of ending teams and that was that so this is this is now three years on so Luke the youngest is 13

[00:10:49] the eldest is 18 which is mo so within this story it's quite a hearted in story there is a fatality

[00:10:58] who are stopping and one of the characters Luke who's 13 years old goes missing at the end

[00:11:04] basically he's once again he's groomed and the house gets taken over so the cookoo in element there

[00:11:13] yeah yeah and the debt bondage as well so it's explaining to those what I have realised when

[00:11:21] I've been going to second musicals is that I think we also must clearly assume that they know

[00:11:25] even what county lines are I think it's an all encompassing thing and they don't and I think

[00:11:32] explaining what that means it's a terminology that's obviously banded about

[00:11:38] misgain and to understand what that means what and you know it's involved in that obviously

[00:11:43] you've got the exploitation the grooming the council lines with that comes comes violence

[00:11:51] knives carrying weapons more drugs crack cocaine but the whole thing and you know having the house

[00:11:58] taken of the cookooing and we went into one school and they in fact you can look on the YouTube

[00:12:03] the teachers comment about that cookooing element that I put within the story and what he said was

[00:12:08] it's the first story animation he'd seen that really captured that that age group and

[00:12:17] I mean it works then you know that's the important words yeah he said yeah he said it's the only

[00:12:23] thing is that he's seen the actually in edge of that age group and and really

[00:12:28] when I'm conducting my research you know I'm up with the North Yorkshire Police cadets

[00:12:33] at the York and Harrogate and the North Yorkshire Youth Commission so I wanted to hear what they

[00:12:38] had to say and what they thought would be good to do to utilise it and also very very much a

[00:12:45] collaborative effort in the fact that you know I've used a 20 year old to do the illustration work

[00:12:52] um it was at the university and so I very much collaborate with with young people when I'm

[00:12:58] doing my stories because I think it's important because they are the audience and they are the ones

[00:13:04] that we need to to to educate us much as we possibly can. How to try and get as front of as many

[00:13:11] as possible I think too that that's why hopefully listeners to this and others will begin to

[00:13:18] add to the invitations that you're getting which I mean are huge at the moment I don't know whether

[00:13:23] you you can clone yourself perhaps maybe that would help I don't know. I think face to face is

[00:13:28] really important I know there's a there's only one of me but there are lots of other um

[00:13:35] lots of other individuals out there who are delivering inter schools and I'd like to give them

[00:13:42] a bit of a showcase really which as well yeah it can't be everywhere but I think the teachers

[00:13:49] are actually crying out for resources and help and I think having why I did the comic strip style

[00:13:55] story is that we will engage most readers because it's kind of um in that style um visual

[00:14:03] anybody with attention difficulties um and also having the animation as well um is it well

[00:14:09] engaged and it's not too long but I do think that the best way to get messages across through

[00:14:15] the power of storytelling um as well. I know you've always believed in that I mean because

[00:14:21] you've you've authored quite a bit but hang on let let's I'm just thinking of time here and I want

[00:14:27] to move on a slightly bit wider if that's all right but you can talk about obviously

[00:14:32] guarantee lines of it fits in yeah and initiatives that you might be thinking about at the moment

[00:14:38] right so I'm actually going into so this is gonna I'm going into a school on Friday,

[00:14:43] her secondary school um at the request of the school so I'm working with year eights,

[00:14:48] nines and tens um in really sessions with um if you're 100 in the time in those sessions and then

[00:14:55] for the last session I'm going to spend an hour um for those that want to to um to construct

[00:15:03] poetry so um in any style so writing about it or even illustrating um and that kind of got me

[00:15:12] thinking as well when I was chatting to to hide it was about perhaps uh running it an initiative

[00:15:18] to encourage children young people from age 12 to 25 um to write so anyway this is born in initiative

[00:15:27] so this so I've set up this initiative now which is going to be launched at the beginning of March

[00:15:33] and it's it's encouraging um young people age 12 to 25 to write a poem in any style or a song um

[00:15:44] and this is going to be open this initiative until the end of June in the mid july

[00:15:51] um then we sent to the judges now the judges I've got on board for a real mixed mixed bag

[00:15:57] so right so I've got um and it's run from poets to various police personnel from different

[00:16:07] areas all from different ranks in policing um that's from North Yorkshire West Yorkshire

[00:16:13] Humberside Bedfordshire um and then I've got lived experience um and campaigns as well

[00:16:23] I've got a lady Lorraine uh Jones Barole who's a pastor she founded the Duane Simpson Foundation

[00:16:29] Kimberly Lam who's uh the Gisemir Pogel. You see you I mean you've got a bag full of judge

[00:16:35] yes and if I remember rightly Christina who's the same principle the same model

[00:16:42] well because you put together a book of lockdown poems from children and you've got people

[00:16:50] into judge that and so forth and it went down very well and so presumably this model is going to

[00:16:56] be something similar. You'll be sitting that so as well as so the um so what they will get for

[00:17:03] entering so the the winning poem or song there's a 200 pound prize but also what I want to do is put

[00:17:10] together a book of the best 50 the top 50 um which will be published um and for for everybody to

[00:17:19] view and each of those 50 who get chosen for it will will get a free copy and then one's whether

[00:17:25] on will be be for sale and any proceeds from those sales of those books will go to nspcc's childline

[00:17:32] the winners of the initiative will be announced on International Youth Day which is the 12th of

[00:17:40] August so that's not that far away so the sooner you get cracking the better obviously right and

[00:17:47] you're launching this on Friday are you yeah that's um this week yeah this is a monthly this has

[00:17:55] been recorded on so first first of March first of March okay well getting it all online but yes

[00:18:02] so there's going to be an extra page added to my website trapped in countylines.co.uk so that extra

[00:18:08] page will have uh showcase the photographs of the judges and their titles um so yeah so I've got a

[00:18:16] real I've got an investment to reporter on board as well and these are all people that I've

[00:18:21] engaged with over since 2019 since doing my research about the topic and that's what networks are

[00:18:28] for well what I wanted to do was to get everybody talking about it working together um because it's

[00:18:36] such a huge problem and it's more of a problem than the general public think uh and it's just because

[00:18:43] I hear so many horrific stories and I think we need to talk about this we need to get everybody

[00:18:48] talking about it into our community's parents carers teachers children talking about a subject and

[00:18:54] you've been you've been actively working and campaigning on a subject that is essentially huge in

[00:19:00] terms of the grooming of young people and you know the the way that drug dealers and drug users and gangs

[00:19:06] and everything let that use them intimidate them push them through however it's also as you well

[00:19:12] know and we've talked about this before part of a wide enormous safeguarding problem that vulnerable

[00:19:19] adults and young children have in this country and all in fact worldwide um whether it's trafficking

[00:19:26] whether it's slavery and whether it's any other form of coercive activity on the vulnerable

[00:19:33] and you've certainly made a made an impact in looking at that aspect of it and to try and pull it

[00:19:40] all together I mean you know the people I talked to on the program here world-wide looking at

[00:19:46] these enormous problems and the internet is almost at the core of most of it so after you've

[00:19:54] done this have you got other books in mind other because I mean obviously you found the way to get

[00:20:00] your voice across which is fantastic have you have you other things in mind to write about or

[00:20:05] you're too busy with the things you've talked about so far right so what I can say is that because

[00:20:11] how I know that this is impacting the children one the the young people are going to secondary schools

[00:20:16] at the end of the story Luke goes missing and he's not found and this is happening so much

[00:20:21] and the the children are really concerned what's happened to Luke is there going to be another story

[00:20:27] the definitely isn't the story but what I do is again there's the first two the the third story

[00:20:37] can be what what happens and to let children know what does happen and I already have a story in

[00:20:44] mind for that so I'll be looking for anybody out there to fund the next one so the next kind of

[00:20:50] comic strip style and animation after that what I'm going to do is put a team novel together

[00:21:00] graphic team novel with the whole story and a little bit more and again targeted at that age group

[00:21:08] and because of the content they're more likely to read it as well and I say to them all what I

[00:21:15] put in my stories obviously the characters are fictitious within my stories but this is true to life

[00:21:19] this is what happens so it's based on a lot a lot of true fact no absolutely and the amount of

[00:21:27] help that you're getting is fantastic I mean I'm presumed to that will make an effort to do the

[00:21:33] usual kind of get a hold of some big names to endorse it as well well it's just about everybody

[00:21:40] working together obviously you know if anybody out there can help who is a celebrity obviously

[00:21:46] no celebrity I'm just you know me and I think that can help but I think yeah more needs to be

[00:21:55] done with early intervention it's far better to you know educate before it's too late before the

[00:22:04] before the exploiters get to the children and young people and then try and pick up the pieces

[00:22:09] afterwards I know it's it's a small step but we have to try oh no do I have no question about

[00:22:16] that let me ask you this Christina because I mean we've got a few minutes left now I want to make

[00:22:21] sure that I ask why I hope you can tell me you talk to a lot about collaboration with the police

[00:22:28] you talk a lot about collaboration with education vis-à-vis the schools and so forth what about

[00:22:33] the other kind of safeguarding kind of pillars if you're like health and social services do you see

[00:22:40] openings there within their remit and within their activity that would benefit from the work you've

[00:22:47] done definitely I'm happy to speak to anybody and work with anybody in that respect I do get a lot

[00:22:56] of requests for things but like anybody else I can't work for free I do a lot of

[00:23:02] voluntary stuff on various you know sides of my work and I'm really in this initiative voluntarily

[00:23:09] because I feel so passionate about it and bringing all these I've got I've got over 25 judges who

[00:23:15] have come on board again who are all obviously like yourself are all voluntary a time to

[00:23:23] must be a name for that collection of judges and must be okay all right listen listen just

[00:23:30] quickly the last few minutes all right any other messages you'd like to get I mean or I make sure

[00:23:37] people remember what I said I'll have every contact detail for you on the front of the website

[00:23:42] on front of the podcast you know as well as you know trying to do you know contact anybody I have

[00:23:49] a link to anything you've talked about already well I the message I was like to get across is

[00:23:56] just if you're a parent's carers teachers anybody in the community just talk to your children about

[00:24:03] these topics because it can happen to any child anywhere it's not just in areas of deprivation

[00:24:09] it's absolutely everywhere where can you buy a copy of your book I they can they can they can

[00:24:15] you know can go to Amazon but it's far better to go to through my website because then Amazon

[00:24:19] don't get my profits very small of course Amazon never listen to us we're all right yeah so no they're

[00:24:27] available through Amazon you you can order through a bookstore um but you could go direct to um

[00:24:33] my christy and the gavitas.com website where the world where all my publications are um and you can

[00:24:40] get them get them that way um but if there are any kind of schools or the police force out there

[00:24:47] you know if large quantities of bought the printing costs are lower so I can supply them at a cheaper

[00:24:52] price and I just think it's really important to um all right when have done the sessions for children

[00:24:59] to actually take it home and chat to the parents or if not I mean we will be doing some more

[00:25:05] poetry as well surrounding this um it's lovely way it's a lovely way to engage the children because

[00:25:11] they will be enthusiastic about it I mean I'm guessing that entries free is it and of course it

[00:25:17] is gosh yeah no no but I just just had to be said I think you know in case people thought they

[00:25:22] would have to so that's fantastic and there's a prize and they can be part of a book 50 top poets

[00:25:30] in your book I think that'll be an excellent opportunity both to learn and also to um spread the

[00:25:36] world yeah I mean the poets have on board a relevant to the to the subject as well so yeah spoken

[00:25:43] word artists and youth workers I've got on board as well so yeah there's a real kind of um

[00:25:50] everybody feels really passionate about it and we all want to work together and I think that's

[00:25:55] the important thing people need to work together more chat more and share more information and I

[00:26:01] think that that really is key and early intervention oh I mean it's the it's the old story and everywhere

[00:26:08] I go and have the conversations the people in different disciplines and yours obviously as well

[00:26:16] it all comes down to this that there are people out there whose job it is

[00:26:20] whose business is safeguarding but it's everybody's business really and the whole community safe

[00:26:28] guarding you know some people get paid for it but it really is everybody's business and that

[00:26:33] not only means schools but it means friendship circles it means extended family it means the

[00:26:39] neighbors it means anybody who's got worries we really need to come forward as a community now

[00:26:45] because we're so much better at dealing with things when they come forward people used to really

[00:26:50] worry about that but now there's enough a lot of sensitivity around there is and I think um again

[00:26:58] what you said earlier about online um you know more and more children are being groomed more online

[00:27:04] as well um which which is quite frightening but again down to education speaking

[00:27:12] uh not just being in it a special a special nation once in a while it's got to be spoke about

[00:27:18] a lot anyway listen power to your elbow Christina Gavitas I hope you carry on doing what you're doing

[00:27:25] you're doing you are doing some great work and I think that's got to be seen and recognised

[00:27:31] I know you were down at number 10 recently getting uh uh thank you

[00:27:36] and I got a point of light award that was for my volunteer work on children's literature festivals

[00:27:41] charity and I also know you're running the the London marathon for NSPCC soon aren't you

[00:27:47] the child line yeah that's in April that'll be my fourth

[00:27:50] for a reason you'll be fit then that'll be fine well listen the important thing is thanks for

[00:27:56] coming along and talking about stuff and I think probably and it's no secret we'll probably have

[00:28:01] you back in about a year and you can tell us how it's gone yeah then we can see how the book's

[00:28:06] doing and how yeah as far as all yeah sounds like a good plan thank you for keeping well

[00:28:12] power to your elbow see you very soon and thanks again cheers thank you bye bye