152 Peter Garsden President of the Association of Child Abuse Lawyers

[00:00:00] Welcome back to Thoughts On The Social World, the Social World Podcast, I'm David Niven

[00:00:18] and as always it's a pleasure to have your company.

[00:00:22] Now we've just celebrated as we talked over the last two or two podcasts 10 years of

[00:00:29] while podcasting and now 152 this will be and this is a very special one, somebody

[00:00:35] because it's somebody that I actually didn't interview with 10 years ago at the beginning

[00:00:42] days of the podcast and he's just as active as ever and he's just as influential

[00:00:47] as ever and it's a pleasure to talk to Peter Garston.

[00:00:51] Welcome Peter.

[00:00:52] Hi.

[00:00:53] Now Peter you're a solicitor consultant, though it's got Monk Reef solicitors but as well

[00:00:59] as that you're the president of the Association of Child Abuse Lawyers which gets you involved

[00:01:04] in all sorts of strategic as well as some kind of operational and day-to-day casework.

[00:01:11] I mean that really covers the landscape of it.

[00:01:14] So do you feel as if you're actually in the middle of things or are you still sort of

[00:01:20] not sure what's going on if it's coherent policy on child abuse all around?

[00:01:25] Well I guess it's nearly 30 years since I started doing child abuse work and over 40 years

[00:01:33] since I qualified as a solicitor.

[00:01:35] So I guess it's say that I'm near the end of my career but I don't feel as though I'm

[00:01:43] at the end.

[00:01:44] I feel very much in the midst of monumental change of thought for the better because if there's

[00:01:58] one thing that the type of work I do is that is forever changing and there was monumental

[00:02:08] change in the beginning because I was one of the first in 1994 to do child abuse cases

[00:02:15] acting for claimants or victims or survivors, how have you all term them?

[00:02:23] And therefore for the first at least 10 years we are inventing new ways of working in

[00:02:32] a new and developing area of law and practice when there were no rules.

[00:02:41] So we were having to invent all the rules using basic legal principles and basically the

[00:02:47] law wasn't enacted to cope with child abuse cases because they didn't exist.

[00:02:57] I am by speciality a person, injury lawyer which means that I deal with the way in which

[00:03:05] an event is harmed somebody but this is a very niche and specialist area of person

[00:03:15] in law where most of the injury is psychiatric rather than physical.

[00:03:27] Can we just go into it a bit more?

[00:03:30] Maybe if you could explain some of the responsibilities that you have as president of the Association

[00:03:37] of Child Abuse Lawyers?

[00:03:39] Well the association is set up or was set up by me and others back in 1998 to provide the

[00:03:50] best quality of service and the most empathetic type of service for a very different type

[00:04:01] of client namely the victim stroke survivor of abuse.

[00:04:07] We have a code of practice which emphasises that we have to not only take instructions

[00:04:15] in the transactional way that lawyers do but also to be empathetic towards the needs

[00:04:24] and demands of some very damaged clients who have mental health problems.

[00:04:33] We have to give them the best possible advice, we have to pursue rigorously all avenues

[00:04:42] of cases and we are committed to fighting for changes in the law where changes necessary

[00:04:55] for the benefit of the victim rather than the abuser.

[00:05:01] We don't act for the other side, we don't act for local authorities or owners of care

[00:05:08] homes, we only act for the victim of abuse.

[00:05:13] So as president of this association it's my responsibility to keep all the ducts in a

[00:05:20] row I suppose and lead by example and provide training to new recruits and continuous training

[00:05:36] to existing members of this association.

[00:05:40] How much of a, can I just interrupt you a second there but just to ask you to expand

[00:05:45] on something there when you started out in back in the 90s did you have any kind of

[00:05:54] difficulty in terms of working with children in other words because it's quite a special

[00:06:03] area, specialist area of work especially traumatized children and do you and your members

[00:06:10] now get help training support in that especially the newer ones?

[00:06:17] Yeah I mean there are two elements to the training one is legal and transactional which

[00:06:24] is the same as any other type of law but the other very important part is how to deal with

[00:06:31] the client because the majority of our clients are actually aged between 35 and 50.

[00:06:37] So this is, I see okay, sorry, okay yeah.

[00:06:43] We do act for children and we have quite a lot of cases referred to as by the official

[00:06:48] solicitor where the local authority hasn't looked after children properly going through

[00:06:57] the care process but majority of our clients are between 35 and 50.

[00:07:06] They finding it impossible to deal with the psychological trauma of pursuing a claim at

[00:07:17] the time and it's often not until later life where a life triggering events such as childbirth

[00:07:25] or having a child of the same age as the client was when they're abused acts as a trigger to

[00:07:36] encourage them to do something about their past and obviously one doesn't start looking at

[00:07:42] one's past usually until middle age until then one looks forward and backwards.

[00:07:50] So yes we do have specialist training to explain the psychological dynamics of abuse,

[00:08:03] how it affects the individual and how to deal with them in the correct way to avoid

[00:08:09] triggering them into trauma or making the life worse rather than better.

[00:08:15] Yeah okay, we'll look how about the bit about the representation.

[00:08:20] I mean what do you call them class actions or is that an Americanism?

[00:08:25] I'm not quite sure when you have group of kind of people together who've been

[00:08:30] perhaps badly done by some institutional authority.

[00:08:35] Well yeah class actions is an American term though

[00:08:39] sometimes are often used by the newspapers in England and Wales though the civil procedures

[00:08:47] rules call them group actions and they are quite common particularly if you're dealing with a

[00:08:55] career sex offender or a period file who was worked at an institution or in institutions for a long

[00:09:06] time and the important elements of a group action is a common issue of fact or law.

[00:09:18] So the common issues of fact with group actions are the fact that a number of individuals have been

[00:09:27] abused by one person or that the abuse happened at a particular location.

[00:09:36] Or that they all have the same type of legal issue to be determined for example

[00:09:46] whether Mr So-and-So who was the abuser was actually employed by the organisation or not

[00:09:54] and there are other legal arguments about that and obviously it saves time and money

[00:09:59] to try that issue only once rather than 150 at times. I mean when the largest group actions

[00:10:07] that I have dealt with in my career was one against Manchidocity Council for abuse that happened

[00:10:15] at a number of their children's homes which was registered down in the law courts in London

[00:10:24] as the Manchidocity Council group action and I think there were

[00:10:29] have been over the years 800 claimants in that group so that's a very large group but some of

[00:10:34] the groups are as small as 10. It sounds like you've got a lot of experience in that

[00:10:41] kind of guest you would have because it's not uncommon although I don't know the kind of that

[00:10:49] sort of landscape we should like intimately but I mean it sounds like you've got a lot of

[00:10:54] experience in that but look we've got so many other things I want to ask you as well.

[00:11:00] When I first started in child protection back in the 1970s you know I think it was still then

[00:11:05] called over-chestedism or something ridiculous then but effectively there's always been

[00:11:11] change of some kind when there was a shock to the collective system and that's I mean I know we

[00:11:19] got Maria Colwell in the 70s but effectively before that there was a little boy called Dennis O'Neill

[00:11:24] in 1945 that was killed when he was cut by a foster career. Terrible terrible story I did a BBC

[00:11:36] documentary on it and the shock to the nation was just like baby pee was if you remember that you know

[00:11:47] the whole thing and even it promoted people don't realize this but Agatha Christie was so

[00:11:54] taken with the whole story that she wrote the most trap and people don't realize that inspired

[00:12:04] that and we took the surviving brother of the boy who was killed to see the most trap for the very

[00:12:10] first time and he was 70s 70s then whatever 80s wherever but it was a thing that shocked the nation

[00:12:18] and fostering panels were set up and local authorities by law they had to have three women on them

[00:12:23] by law and the whole thing moved and moved and moved until you got to the 47 act which was

[00:12:28] the big one but it was a beginning of a momentum the shock to the system and I'm wondering over the

[00:12:34] years what one stand out for you in terms of things that have lurched the system forward a bit

[00:12:42] and made things a little bit better. Well I guess there are two major impotuses

[00:12:52] that have changed things and the first one was what brought all this to a head which was

[00:13:05] the massive police investigation into children's homes all over the country I think that was probably

[00:13:14] hit its height in around 1997 say 1995 to 2000 and at one time 41 out of 43 police forces had a

[00:13:31] major child abuse investigation on their patch and there was a huge logistical operation necessary

[00:13:38] to try and work out where the different police organisations overlap and had links with each other

[00:13:52] and that brought about a great degree of shock and awe in the public who could hardly believe

[00:14:05] that this had been happening in our children's homes which is largely where it was and it was thought.

[00:14:15] And what about the other one you mentioned? The other one is Jimmy Savile and the

[00:14:22] other one. And that was I think 2010 and that brought about a huge change in the way police

[00:14:36] dealt with criminal prosecutions coupled with that and falling on from that was the sexual exploitation

[00:14:46] and gang treatment of girls largely. Yeah also boys in some of our towns and cities so I guess you

[00:14:57] could call that three. Well I don't mind I'm sure there was plenty of worry but these were probably

[00:15:03] the first two that came to the top of your head and I appreciate this probably plenty more I mean

[00:15:10] all the names of the individual children would seem familiar if we kind of just took a moment or

[00:15:17] to think back on some of them but I mean it's the changes that's happened but I want to know from

[00:15:22] you because we're not too far from the end but there's a whole new challenge these days to those

[00:15:28] in the front line so whether it's solicitors or whether it's social workers or whether it's police

[00:15:32] officers or whoever that safeguarding is not what it used to be you know there used to be the

[00:15:40] fourth sort of you know physical sexual emotional neglect and it tended to kind of get trained

[00:15:47] and deal with the things in that light but now we've got massive new challenges on things like

[00:15:54] human trafficking slavery the internet biggest of all probably and how do we get the

[00:16:02] front line staff those those facing the youngsters the vulnerable those trying to protect them

[00:16:08] absolutely kind of as up to the speed as possible as best trained as possible when sometimes we

[00:16:14] can't even feel they can see how do you feel about it but I often feel guilty for the work that

[00:16:24] have done which is you know a paradox and and and I shouldn't but when I come across

[00:16:34] the way in which safeguarding has to operate in even small voluntary organisations

[00:16:42] and when our witness you know children just getting fatter not going out to play

[00:16:48] and having obesity problems at a young age because the parents weren't let them out because they're

[00:16:54] afraid about what may happen in the big wide world you know I feel bad about that but I shouldn't

[00:17:01] do because of course what we're doing is making our children safer and that is laudable but

[00:17:11] it's a good thing that the public are more aware and the parents and more aware it's but it's

[00:17:15] bad that it creates anxiety and inhibits play you know the fact that children had the heads buried

[00:17:28] in smartphones rather than go out climbing trees and you know so much as digital I mean

[00:17:38] that's I mean the leading chief councilor can't remember his name no for

[00:17:43] children or child protection safeguarding talked of not long ago the fact that he reckoned there was

[00:17:50] at least a hundred and a thousand mainly men but not exclusively mainly men downloading

[00:17:57] child pornography up you know in their own homes or wherever and the police just didn't have

[00:18:03] the resources to deal with that and he actually suggested that health should take over which I

[00:18:09] completely took over a giant argued fiercely with them on the radio but I mean effectively it

[00:18:15] just shows you that doesn't take away the fact that there are all these people that are doing things

[00:18:20] to encourage the trade and abusing children yeah well I mean we've I mean it's it's pertinent that

[00:18:30] on the 26th of October this year the online safety act came was getting the royal attention that

[00:18:37] and that has been trumpeted and politicized to the nth degree saying that it will now mean that

[00:18:46] children will be a lot safer however the devil of inevitable is in the detail

[00:18:59] and I wrote an article on it recently for my my website abutersforcivivers.co.uk and

[00:19:09] abutivizedforcivivers.co.uk and unfortunately the act is a water down version of what was

[00:19:20] originally planned because originally they were going to make social media platforms publishes

[00:19:27] so that they were as responsible as the individuals doing the post for the content however

[00:19:36] that they're no longer that they've not been made publishers but there are I think

[00:19:43] 35 different duties of care that they have towards users and particularly children

[00:19:50] and it's a welcome development but it's it's down to off-com to enforce the rules.

[00:19:59] And that is again another matter because you know I'm not sure everybody will have total

[00:20:06] confidence in that happening yeah no and um but listen one thing what what what what while you

[00:20:12] mention it there let's remind everybody I will put on the front page of the podcast or the text

[00:20:18] page all the links and everything to do with what you've just talked about we're mainly two your

[00:20:23] your website you know we'll publish I will put that straight there on the front page I'll link to it

[00:20:29] and anything else that you want that you know of coming up or whatever to do with either yourself

[00:20:34] or the association and um look I'm just saying that right now because we're coming to the last

[00:20:40] minute or two but I wanted people to be aware that they could actually catch up with things

[00:20:44] like read your article on your website and so on so for the last minute or two Peter would you say

[00:20:52] that things are better now in terms of um the numbers of children that we're actually looking after

[00:21:00] because I'm a bit why was a bit worried I mean 20 years ago every single day there was 50,000

[00:21:06] children on what was then the child protection register today any single day there are 50,000

[00:21:12] children on what's considered to be part of an at risk plan the only difference is there still

[00:21:19] today there's been about to get them there are about four times as many investigations

[00:21:25] I I don't know what you know where to start with that to be honest with you and I just thought

[00:21:32] I chuck it at you there's a final kind of thing so you could solve this 64,000 dollar question

[00:21:38] I mean I think inevitably we're in a much better place child protection child abuse terms

[00:21:45] than we were 30 years ago and I started this um that there are many more counsellors than

[00:21:53] the were then they still aren't enough there are many more psychologists with uh adequate training

[00:22:02] and knowledge of the different disorders are caused by child abuse um we have many more criminal

[00:22:12] offenses to cover most eventualities um and ways in which abusers can abuse children um we have much

[00:22:26] longer sentences for child abuse than we did 30 years ago um and we have better trained lawyers

[00:22:35] and judges than we did so long ago I think that that's not to to touch the surface of safeguarding

[00:22:44] and for example something that I campaigned for in 1997 the disclosure and barring service

[00:22:51] that also didn't it no I remember our conversations well about that um and I remember the uphill

[00:22:59] struggle we had to get it introduced um you know well it wasn't far off it wasn't far off either

[00:23:06] the introduction after before that was it or just after I can't remember of the um

[00:23:12] the register of offenders yes yes yeah that it yeah

[00:23:20] listen listen Peter I'm sorry we run out of time virtually however sorry but like I said

[00:23:28] everything is going to be on the front page um and I just I mean I want to talk to you much sooner

[00:23:34] than the next 10 years for goodness sake so I mean look thank you very much indeed um keep up the

[00:23:40] good work and um it's been a pleasure having you a guest on the podcast Peter Garzen thank you

[00:23:48] you very much