151 John Pizzuro CEO Raven anti child exploitation part 2

[00:00:00] Welcome back everybody to Thoughts On The Social World, Social Work Podcast. I'm Dave Niven

[00:00:17] and as always it's a great pleasure to have your company. Now today I'm talking again

[00:00:25] with John Pazuro who is the CEO of Raven. Now we talked a few weeks ago but I just thought

[00:00:33] there's so much to get from John, so much he's done and so many things that are being

[00:00:38] enrolled at the moment with to do with either trafficking or to do with criminality,

[00:00:42] to do with child exploitation that I thought we've got to have him back again. So welcome

[00:00:47] back John. Hey how are you David? Good day here from yet.

[00:00:51] Well look, I thought this time we could just start by literally having a conversation

[00:00:57] that would begin to kind of develop in people's minds just what kind of work you do and

[00:01:04] what the aims and objectives are and what if you like what the hurdles on the challenges

[00:01:09] are too. So maybe just give us a sense of one or two things that have been happening

[00:01:14] to you this week and we could take it from there. Is that okay? Yeah, that's perfect.

[00:01:19] You know the funny thing is is that some people deemed things interesting or not right?

[00:01:28] So a couple of years back when I was investigating like the dark web right, one of the things

[00:01:35] is that you never kind of know what you're going to get and it is really challenging from

[00:01:45] the respect is that you're trying to figure people out. So like on the dark web for example

[00:01:51] when we were looking at traffickers and people that were buying children strategically

[00:01:56] have to figure out what their belief system is right, what their values are, what's going

[00:02:01] to move them. So the same thing could be said for politics so that's why a day for me it's

[00:02:08] not a nine to five, today I'm engaging with this lawmaker tomorrow I'm doing an interview

[00:02:14] on trying to solve a solution so I think those are some of the things that are just interesting

[00:02:19] you know on a daily basis. Okay so very I mean okay well let's start with the dark web

[00:02:24] one and just maybe give us what you can without breaching any kind of confidentiality

[00:02:30] what you can tell people that are listening about what that would involve.

[00:02:34] So here is the here's the here's the challenge so like there are communities on the dark

[00:02:40] net that just basically target children you're talking about some of the most heinous things

[00:02:49] that you've ever seen for example there's a post on one of the dark webs on how to do

[00:02:54] the four-year-old and it was read over 55,000 times. So those are some of the people that

[00:03:00] like New Jersey was engaging with we've arrested over 30 people each one of them having 20 victims

[00:03:06] where we had this one guy Jonathan Spray who's now serving time in California who in his interview

[00:03:13] said that he was going to kidnap an eight-year-old so and sexually assaulted massage poly workers.

[00:03:23] When we talk about advocacy from a Raven standpoint because of all the knowledge and experience

[00:03:30] that I have that's what really becomes valuable to the policy standpoint and that's where you know

[00:03:37] understanding all the challenges in catching those individuals. Now it's trying to give law enforcement

[00:03:44] those tools in order for them to catch some of the most heinous predators out there.

[00:03:51] Well you've really specialized in if you like extending your experience as well

[00:03:57] if I understood you last time because you're very much into the forensic aspect of things

[00:04:03] the neuroscience and so forth and trying to sort of understand the whole behavior patterns

[00:04:09] of criminals. That must have absolutely kind of blown your mind sometimes in terms of what you've

[00:04:18] discovered. You know it's understanding people here's the key to anything in life you know from

[00:04:24] a neuroscience standpoint or psychology the key really is understanding where people come from so

[00:04:32] I think I've for me I spent a great deal of time of understanding people's motivations on

[00:04:40] understanding how people are made up psychologically neurologically right so it gives me the ability

[00:04:46] to connect with them and understand and go there. You know it's almost being empathic right what

[00:04:53] you're trying to do is understand where someone's history is where they came from

[00:04:58] in order to engage with them better because let's face it you know even people like people or

[00:05:04] like themselves so understanding where someone is going to go where they're going to be is vital

[00:05:12] whether you're doing detective work or you're actually doing you know lobbying or having strategic

[00:05:17] relationships because the end goal really is to try to um get to where people are and um and then

[00:05:27] come up with a strategy behind that. So much of child abuse child exploitation I mean I know

[00:05:35] and I mean and you you explained this before as well and so many other people I mean is to do with

[00:05:41] organized crime okay because there's a lot of money in that I get it trafficking so forth but

[00:05:47] so much too is opportunity opportunistic individuals who are just literally attracted born attracted

[00:05:53] to children was that fair? Yeah so statistically if you talk about um there's studies that say three

[00:06:01] to five percent of the male population is uh um you know has pedophile tendencies so right if you

[00:06:08] take nine million people in the state of New Jersey for example um and you take maybe 450

[00:06:16] thousand and you add or 450 four point five million and you do let's say three percent that's

[00:06:24] a million people right so how do a million people it's um you know um a hundred thousand right so

[00:06:30] you know it's just there is a segment that the reality is is um that's what they like you know

[00:06:39] motivations um and understanding mindset of criminals is really important so it's the same thing

[00:06:46] I did so when I was doing I did traditional organized crime when I I don't know if I told you in

[00:06:51] the last one but I had a contract happened by the genitalies crime family so it's you know you didn't

[00:06:56] actually mention that yeah so uh so I spent five years doing the traditional five families

[00:07:01] so the sopranos 100% true right so I invested in the genitalies crime family you know law enforcement

[00:07:09] officers killing people for the mob um which which ultimately got me this contract but the um

[00:07:17] but the reality is is that um um that is really the important aspect is understanding

[00:07:25] organization so when I was doing non-traditional organized crime and I was doing Asian organized

[00:07:30] crime or whether it be Vietnamese or let's say triads I would understand that the Italians I would

[00:07:36] understand culturally that um and I think that and I spent five years doing corruption so a lot of

[00:07:42] the political people that we're talking about today you know I did wiretap after wiretap of

[00:07:48] criminal organization so before I actually got to uh trafficking and child exploitation

[00:07:56] I had investigated at Kali Kartell I investigated 9-11 uh I investigated organized crime corruption

[00:08:03] I spent time in homicide so it's the same thought process and strategy and patterns that I take

[00:08:12] with me today so and it's all experienced driven because ultimately for me to be successful

[00:08:18] in catching people I had to understand them so and I think that today especially today in the world

[00:08:25] of influencers we don't listen anymore we don't pay attention because it's the me generation

[00:08:32] so we don't understand other people and I think the minute we stop understanding whether they

[00:08:37] be our adversaries or our friends the minute we stop understanding people the more likely we are not

[00:08:45] to be successful in understanding where we need to go okay let me ask you a question because on

[00:08:52] this side of the pond you know you try and rationalize things in order partly to get through the

[00:08:56] David partly to make you know to make better work for yourself and so on and actually deal with

[00:09:00] things better but I've always been of the opinion that people who are attracted sexually to children

[00:09:08] um are essentially the nearest thing I can consider them to be his addicts now addicts generally

[00:09:16] there's no such thing as cure we know that they're going to be addicted for life whether it's drink

[00:09:23] drugs gambling or children but effectively the difference with people who are have pitiful

[00:09:31] tendencies whatever is that the victim is not themselves the victim is now somebody else so

[00:09:37] as there can't be any cure they're only can be controlled and therefore the controls needed for

[00:09:44] people that interested in children sexually have to be self-control but have to have social

[00:09:51] controls as well would you say that's a failure assessment you know it's interesting you say that

[00:09:58] yes because you know if you knew that you were attracted to children and if you knew it wrong there

[00:10:04] shouldn't be an outlet let's say that maybe helps you not actually do that right so maybe that

[00:10:12] does dissuade people right kind of like um you know from a behavior standpoint so but the challenges

[00:10:19] is because of because of what society um kind of looks at most people in this crime type will not

[00:10:28] talk about it right that's why you know it's always surprising it's not surprising to me anymore but

[00:10:33] when you're next door neighbor or it's the police officer or the priest or the people and trust

[00:10:39] take advantage of kids but that's been happening since the um since the don't society even if you

[00:10:46] go to the Greeks and aromas okay I mean I think that the crime side of it if you like the organized

[00:10:52] crime side of it all the things and very very dangerous and scary things that you outlined that

[00:10:58] you've come across in your work from me it wasn't as much that it was the individuals that were

[00:11:03] problematic um in terms of actually trying to do anything we could to stop people crossing that line

[00:11:10] and actually committing criminal offenses and desperately trying to get them to seek some help

[00:11:16] that would actually begin to control their urges trouble is there's just so many you gave the numbers

[00:11:23] earlier on it must be the same in most of the western world and effectively um we seem to be swamped

[00:11:31] is that is that too much to say now I were we're we're 100% swapped so I mean you know and I think

[00:11:39] you know people can flake trafficking with exploitation so child exploitation is a much bigger problem

[00:11:44] than trafficking although trafficking gets a lot of the attention you know um when we talk about

[00:11:50] organized crime for example I investigated trafficking before even trafficking was called trafficking

[00:11:56] when you talked about like the triads or every type of organized crime group um you know especially

[00:12:04] when you're talking about Russian and Asian organized crime would bring people into the US but

[00:12:09] would they use culture or use threats on their family overseas in order to um in order to control them

[00:12:18] but you know from a financial standpoint the child exploitation thing really isn't um a lot of

[00:12:24] people think it's the movie taken where you know there's these network who are financially benefiting

[00:12:30] and it's not necessarily the truth so I think that's the challenges that you have so many on

[00:12:37] NGOs for example that focus on trafficking but the real non-government like nonprofits

[00:12:43] but the reality is his child exploitation is a much more pervasive problem than trafficking this

[00:12:51] for me on the front line yeah I mean it used to be when I started out you know working and

[00:12:57] sort of protecting children back in the 1970s right effectively you were really looking at the

[00:13:03] kind of fourth things you know the sort of sexual um physical neglect or emotional abuse of

[00:13:09] children you know well it wasn't easy but it was more straightforward now with all the kind of

[00:13:16] if you want to call it the new abuse kind of categories and the way the world is so whether it's

[00:13:21] the internet whether it's trafficking whether it's slavery whatever um it's actually a whole new

[00:13:30] landscape for frontline professionals yeah I mean look it's um I think technology has really changed

[00:13:40] it because today everyone knows about anything right so let let's say um whether it be the war

[00:13:46] you crane or what's happening in Palestine and Gaza because today we have information so readily

[00:13:53] available people share things and today people can't even tell you which true or what's not

[00:13:59] and I think the exposure of what's happening today societal um is challenging as well and that's

[00:14:07] where today everyone has a smartphone so we're so connected that it's easy to find people to

[00:14:14] victimize more now than it was like even last year and especially 10 years ago yeah yeah yeah

[00:14:22] what about you mentioned um we're talking to technology and you did happen to mention in our

[00:14:28] little chat before we started recording here that you're being asked a lot about AI oh yeah how does

[00:14:36] that factor into things all right so right now we think about AI um so AI is it's a challenge

[00:14:46] because today you can be whatever you want to be on AI she um when you're talking about AI is that

[00:14:58] now I can create my own children so if I let if I'm a consumer of pedophilia

[00:15:04] I generate AI is going to allow me to um look at my four-year-old or six-year-old or my

[00:15:10] neighbors four-year-old and create a digital version of that person so um so now from a grooming

[00:15:19] standpoint where I would physically groom someone um I don't need to do that I can get a program to

[00:15:25] do that and what the program does is basically replicates language so if uh David if you're a

[00:15:33] favorite band was the Beatles right and um yeah I'm talking to you about the Beatles and you have

[00:15:40] this conversation what AI is going to be able to do it's going to be able to replicate everything

[00:15:44] that you say um and then repeat that back to and that as we advance an AI people are not going

[00:15:52] to discern which real or not even today it's difficult but AI is going to allow someone to

[00:15:57] groom at scale that thousands of people is instead of uh ten people they've just had a big

[00:16:04] conference over here on AI um I'm obviously sure you're aware of it at Bletchley Park

[00:16:10] I think Kamala Harris was over here for the States but I mean I I wonder I mean the the feeling on

[00:16:18] the ground might well be they're just throwing a pebble into the ocean is it as bad as that

[00:16:24] yeah and and here's the thing is that no offense to all the people that are having these meetings

[00:16:30] right now I think Congress and the Senate on this side they've had 50 meetings on AI

[00:16:35] but people in Hollywood are worried about them getting replicated uh people are worried about jobs

[00:16:41] in the child stuff and I think that is where um it's like anything else we do things

[00:16:49] until we and we don't fully understand them and right now I think that's part of the

[00:16:54] challenge is the only people that are talking about AI and child exploitation or trafficking that

[00:17:00] are are the nonprofits that basically are out there supporting children so yeah yeah I think that's

[00:17:06] part of it you know any thoughts I mean you know I I bet a pound to a penny that you know you

[00:17:13] haven't got every answer but any thoughts that and you know when you're asked about it when you

[00:17:19] talk about it when you're you've faced up to Congress didn't you you talked Congress recently

[00:17:24] I mean what kind of starting advice have you been able to give people well the good thing is

[00:17:32] is that I have to say the relationships that we've developed on the hill between the Senate and

[00:17:38] Congress and some of the staffers has been great um there are there are offices that want to do

[00:17:44] things with AI you know the funny thing is is that you know most of the people that um really want

[00:17:52] to talk about it AI has become a buzzword but I think some of the younger staffers um who

[00:17:58] live in this generation are starting to see it and understand it so it's those individuals that

[00:18:04] are more solution-oriented and based than the older people like me you know because I guess

[00:18:11] generationally we didn't grow up with that so it's harder for me and you let's say that never

[00:18:17] really grew up that way yeah that way so that's so it's really that's why when I talked about

[00:18:24] and I started this conversation is understanding where people are coming from it's so vitally

[00:18:28] important because again it's what their lens that they're looking at and what they've experienced

[00:18:34] and you kind of have to kind of look at it from that aspect in order to come up with the solution.

[00:18:39] Okay take Raven for example um your company I mean are you managing to at the very least network

[00:18:48] and at the very best uh employee people clever people of that generation who can in fact

[00:18:57] gonna take it further yeah you know so um just even some of the Raven board members like I'll

[00:19:03] give you two individuals like Robert Lee's and me and John Mattson very very technical these are

[00:19:08] individuals that wrote code uh and understand things at a level more so than than I do so it's

[00:19:16] it's in anything and anything we do it's really just getting and surrounding yourself with the

[00:19:22] people that understand uh you know solutions that you might not think of and you know ultimately

[00:19:29] we um were stronger together than we are apart individually and I think from a team standpoint

[00:19:36] it's relying on that I think that's one of the lessons I learned in running a task force

[00:19:41] um and some of these large scale even organized crime operations which I had 40 people

[00:19:47] is you're relying upon people's strengths I think the more we can rely on people's strengths

[00:19:54] and um things that they know about the more likely we are to come up with a more comprehensive solution.

[00:20:00] Okay but of course you're gonna have people who can also absorb and function properly

[00:20:08] with the terrible kind of content that you're talking about all the time you know it can't

[00:20:14] I mean it's all very well I imagine thinking you know this generation you know you get some sort

[00:20:21] of sympathetic people but I mean it's a terribly emotionally draining subject isn't it?

[00:20:27] You know how do you put this and I'll refer to my mental health right so it's the way I look at

[00:20:34] things um you know you know from a neuroscience standpoint in a wellness standpoint

[00:20:40] you know it doesn't I'm not looking at the content anymore but I understand everything

[00:20:47] I understand what's happening so it's more of a purpose driven aspect and I think that's for all

[00:20:53] of us so uh you know most of Raven we've experienced this in our entire lives but we look at it

[00:21:00] differently so not to say that it's going to not impact us but you know you develop enough

[00:21:06] tools and understanding of how to go around and I think from a wellness standpoint the things

[00:21:15] that I've seen in my life can never be unseen right hmm so but I also know that um I like for

[00:21:23] example internally the language that I use is differently I've got really good awareness so if I'm

[00:21:29] having a bad day or stress then I can do something that's more empowering that will alleviate some

[00:21:34] of that so I think that's important is the overall awareness um and the realization is that you're

[00:21:41] just one person in one small cog in a wheel and you can't do everything by yourself the only thing

[00:21:49] I look at is that did I did I today like and this is from a day-to-day basis and this is how

[00:21:56] you know I look at managing things did I make the world incrementally better the next day

[00:22:03] and if the answer is yes you know um what it is is that you don't look back and just say well I

[00:22:10] didn't do 25 million things can we make the world a better place you know and and I think it's progress

[00:22:18] if you can measure that hey I did this well you just moved the bowl just a little bit

[00:22:25] and that's all you need to do but I think people want to look at the finished product um and they

[00:22:31] look where they are don't know how to get there and there's that stress that and the other biggest

[00:22:37] thing is stress and this is for everyone on social media is that we create images of ourselves

[00:22:42] that aren't even real right we see everyone's vacation David if I love that everyone's

[00:22:48] life on social media and compared it to mine I would think my life is horrible that's reality my life

[00:22:53] is wonderful right so it's just we can't compete to what we're trying to envision all right and I

[00:23:00] think that is a stress right now that is even more than the actual content we're looking at because

[00:23:08] we just need to just look did we make the world a better place did I do something positive today

[00:23:14] to make a change if that answer is yes and I can tell you that answer is yes for everyone

[00:23:19] depending on what meaning you give to it you know the stress that you feel um how do you put it

[00:23:26] reduces a bit no I do get that I mean yeah I get that I mean my work life too you know it was

[00:23:34] full of horrible things but I reject the idea of just saying to people it's a job I don't worry

[00:23:40] about you know but because it's not just a job but at the same time you do get to a place where

[00:23:46] you can see and work with the most horrible things and get on there professionally I'll tell you

[00:23:51] one thing though I don't know how you react on but for me the way it affected me and it still does

[00:23:57] to some extent is really strange it's that I have difficulty still watching either films or

[00:24:04] wherever that don't have a happy ending isn't that interesting that's how it affected me yeah

[00:24:13] but you know I don't get I don't think I've got mental problems or anything like that but everybody

[00:24:17] reacts in different ways and compartmentalizes things and internalizes it don't they

[00:24:24] you know why two David too and this is again this is what I've learned through a lot of different

[00:24:28] neuroscientists it's it's it's meaning you know the meaning that you attached to something it's

[00:24:34] and it's hard you have to train yourself so basically yeah David it's internalized like how we

[00:24:42] internalize things and I think that's really important is that internalization and the meaning

[00:24:48] that we put into something really drives that stress right and that happy thing it's just if you see

[00:24:55] something negative over and over again that you can't believe that anything's happening because that's

[00:25:00] the meaning you attached to it you know for me the meaning I attached to is that I am making a

[00:25:07] difference in these individuals life to make them happy so I think that's what drives me and I

[00:25:13] think that is why I still continue to do what I do do you work man do you either you or Raven or

[00:25:20] wherever get enough time because I know it's therapeutically helpful to talk to and work with

[00:25:30] survivors yeah you know like seeing a survivor and what happens is a lot of times in the iCAC world

[00:25:43] we don't see the finished product what we see as the person that is traumatized but we don't

[00:25:49] see the person come out of it and I think those are really good examples of why people and why

[00:25:56] we do do that work right yes because that's the feedback and that's the opportunity for you to

[00:26:02] realize that you've done good yeah and I think part of it is too it's just it's understanding that

[00:26:11] but you know what happens is that we can't see it when we're in it every day and I think that is

[00:26:18] where when you're in the battle there's you don't you miss everything out there right and

[00:26:23] this sounds wonky but the reality is his gratitude right so you know I went out elk hunting

[00:26:29] in Idaho I stayed in a tent for a week it turned out to be a fat camp for me I guess because I'm

[00:26:34] walking all over the walk and over the mountains I didn't see any elk right I paid for this this

[00:26:42] this trip out there but just walking in nature grounds me right and then looking at it and observing

[00:26:49] you know and being thankful for the things that you do have and as funny as it sounds like

[00:26:54] the sunshine the smell of fresh air you know finding things that ground you need to be thankful for so

[00:27:01] I think we lose sight of a lot of that when we're in the battle you can't see anything around

[00:27:08] everything in the battle so if you're talking to people that have been abused on a daily basis

[00:27:13] and you do not be thankful for some of the things that are there and look at it from a different

[00:27:21] point of view then you're going to be stuck in that spot okay I mean listen wiki going all day

[00:27:29] I think we've got about another five minutes and I want to use them as a very very usefuly um

[00:27:35] what sort of messages could you because you're I mean I know you're very young still but you're

[00:27:42] still quite long in the tooth and turns of experience so I mean people coming into either law

[00:27:48] enforcement or social work or any of the kind of therapeutic practices that involve working with

[00:27:56] child exploitation what kind of advice would you give to make sure that they keep

[00:28:04] healthy keep well and have longevity in their career are there things that you can offer people

[00:28:12] you know I know you haven't got any magic but anything that you can think of to offer them

[00:28:16] all right number one your language most important yourself in tunnel language for example

[00:28:22] is that I don't say the word problem I say the word challenge language words are 7% of communication

[00:28:28] but the way we internalize things my language that I use is empowering for example I say I am

[00:28:36] I don't say I should for example I should because people sometimes should all over themselves right

[00:28:43] so language is really important in how you speak to yourself one of the most important things

[00:28:50] that you can do right number two is how how you look at things uh purpose right so for me um purpose

[00:29:00] trumps anything else this is a mission it's purpose focused um and when I look at things right

[00:29:08] internally I look at a lens I could see a children suffering or I could see a children save

[00:29:15] the meaning you were touching the things so so important um number three it's awareness is that when

[00:29:23] you find yourself um not being your normal self it's time to go do the normal things that keep

[00:29:32] you the normal self so for example is when let's say you used to go to concerts and used to go for walks

[00:29:38] in the parks um used to you know do some outside activity right when you stop doing that um you have

[00:29:46] to get back to that activity that made you that person so it's that self-recognization um and

[00:29:53] self-awareness I think those three factors are really important and they've served me well

[00:29:59] and number four is that support system is great too as well as um um um having the people

[00:30:08] socialization matter fact it was in the UK they just did this study and they showed cognitive decline

[00:30:13] for people that were isolated during COVID um yeah socialization is important do not withdrawal

[00:30:20] from people um because that socialization and going out the more you isolate yourself the more

[00:30:28] more how do you put it challenging this can be for yourself so those are important yeah good point

[00:30:33] good point well listen um how time flies you know this is ridiculous I'm going to have to wrap it up now

[00:30:42] John you're an excellent guest thank you and um I'm gonna I'm going to take advantage of that

[00:30:49] and come back to you in the not too distant future again because I think there's just so much we've

[00:30:53] got to talk about here um but for now can I just say to John thank you very much indeed for your time

[00:31:00] talk to you soon and don't you worry I'll make sure that Raven and anything that you're doing or

[00:31:04] want me to put on the front page again you know whether it's links or whatever we'll do that and

[00:31:10] make sure that people get more of a awareness of Raven what you're doing and John what you've done

[00:31:17] so thanks ever so much for being the guest again yeah appreciate it David you have an awesome day

[00:31:22] all right